"turf war" problems in changing packs

[John-in-KC]

CS-GS leader,

 

Again, there is a fundamental difference in the business models of the Boy Scouts of American and the Girl Scouts of the USA:

 

- In Boy Scouting, local community groups license (charter) the BSA program from the local council. The community groups are supposed to be (operative words) active in the leadership, management, and operations of their BSA units. Above the unit, at the District level (subdivision of a Council) there are additional volunteers (over and above the unit serving Scouters) who advise and support the units. These are the Commissioner's Service (program side) and the District Committee (support side). The only professional in the whole shooting match is the District Executive. Everyone else is doing it "for only an hour a week!"

 

- If I understand GSUSA at all correctly, the Council and the service unit are the direct owners of the units. While they partner with local community organizations, GSUSA has far tighter control and responsibility over an individual Girl Scout Troop than does District/Council over a Pack, Troop or Crew.

 

Hope this explains why we Boy Scouts aren't so worried about the professional in this thread as you have been

 

YIS JOhn

 

 

[GS-CS_leader]

John,

 

>- If I understand GSUSA at all correctly, the Council and the service unit are the direct owners of

>the units. While they partner with local community organizations, GSUSA has far tighter control

>and responsibility over an individual Girl Scout Troop than does District/Council over a Pack,

>Troop or Crew.

Sorry to disagree, but I believe you are incorrect in general (based on what I have read in official national GSUSA documents), and certainly the above does not describe my own GS council.

First of all, the Service Unit is ALL VOLUNTEERS. It's basically just all the GS leaders in a region with a few former leaders whose daughters aged or dropped out who stick around to help out. The council does not "own" any units. Yes, they nominally have the ability to "fire" a leader, and I know of cases in which councils were too quick to do that IMO, but surely there is some level of the BSA that has the authority to do that too? Otherwise no one could prevent a convicted child molestor from becoming or continuing to be a CS den leader, for example.

 

Aside from some recent developments (see below), our council does not "control" troops in any way at all. Maybe in some councils, but for mine a better description is council "neglect". They don't even provide first aid and CPR training any more. Leaders have to go find on their own and pay for expensive courses from hospitals and other sources to enable them to fulfill that requirement for trips. We were told that our local fire department course (free to residents) did not qualify because they just gave you credit for participation and would not test and "flunk" anyone who took the course. I talked about resisting taking in too many girls, but I only know about the council's policy through their newsletter to service team members. I've always worried that the parents of a girl put on our "waiting list" would complain to the council, but luckily that hasn't happened.

 

I do have to admit that our council currently seems to be trying to exert more "control" since they have regrouped SU's into "VISTAs", effective as of this month: some are the same old SU with a new number, and some are several SU's put together. After my bad experiences last year, I withdrew from the SU almost completely (SU meeting date was changed and didn't fit my schedule, but I did organize one all-SU park clean-up), so my knowledge of what is happening beyond my troop is second hand. I did make an effort to attend a meeting that our SU leadership told us was technically "illegal". They said council told them that we are "forbidden" from having our own separate meetings and can only meet as "break-outs" from the VISTA meetings (which are at an inconvenient time and place for us, so few leaders from my area will probably attend). Some council staff member (probably the one I dislike so intensely) threatened that if the council found out that we were meeting separately, that they might "fire" leaders. (Interesting way to build up GS in our area: "fire" the hard-to-find people who are even willing to be leaders, especially the ones who organize events beyond their own troops and mentor new leaders!) However, I wouldn't be surprised if those threats were from a staff member and did not represent the council at all---wouldn't be the first time I've seen that happen.

 

[so I admit that I have an axe (or two) to grind about my GS council. I'll try to keep my feelings about the GS council from affecting how I deal with the BS councils.]

 

Back to the GSUSA vs BSA (of which I'm sure you can find other threads on these forums):

Some official GSUSA rules are more strict about things like adult/child ratios and safety issues than BSA (I think, but I'm kind of a newbie with BSA), but mostly GSUSA seems to be extra cautious to avoid getting sued (GSUSA doesn't have the legal power of the "old boys network" like BSA ). More importantly, I've never heard of any real enforcement of these rules, so they are in effect simply advisory.

 

Overall, the Boy Scout program is more strict and more organized that the Girl Scout program, and I actually like that. In many ways, I think GS would be better if they followed the BS model more closely.

[Newbie Den Leader]

CS-GS,

 

I was going to suggest that you consider being a Cubmaster for your Pack, but it sounds like you have your hands full being involved in both Girl Scouts and Cubs and that may not be feasible for you.

 

In many situations, with a Pack size of 10 boys, you can be both CM and den leader without a problem. This would save your Pack and allow the boys to finish out their Cub Scout program before they crossover to Boy Scouts. You might even pick up some recruits along the way. With your experience and care, you can provide a quality program for the Cubs. A small Pack can still be a great Pack.

 

Good Luck to you and thanks for caring for the Cubs. We need more concientious leaders like you.

 

--Jeff

[ScoutNut]

Yup, in GSUSA, the council owns the Troop, it's money & it's equipment. That is why your council's name is on each Troop's checking account. Turning SU's into VISTAs is not about control. It is about GSUSA National's next step in the nationwide Realignment process. VISTAs are currently a pilot program in some councils, but once the kinks are worked out the concept, in some form, will be instituted across the country.

 

But, like BSA, a GSUSA council can NOT tell a girl what Troop they can or can't join. They also can NOT tell a girl she can not join a Troop because it is in another council.

 

We had a girl in our Troop move into another council's area. She continued to register with our Troop, in our council, without any problems. We had another girl, who lived in another council, transfered to our school & our Troop, & later transfered back to her old Troop in the other council. There was also a Troop in our Service Unit (District) whose leaders had some kind of problem with the council so they moved their meeting place into the council next door & switched their registrations to that council. This last one did cause some unhappy waves at our council, but there was nothing the council could do to stop them.

 

We have also had Cubs move out of council & continue to be registered with us & attend our meetings until they found something they liked closer to their new home. No one needed either councils permission.

 

GS-CS_leader states -

 

"I'm still hoping that we can convince our current district to accept that it might that it might be in our best interest to change councils and to give the change "their blessing"."

 

You don't have to convince your current district of ANYTHING. What you do NOT seem to understand is that, beyond the inconvenience of losing a unit, your council could CARE LESS what Pack or council you people register with.

 

"Although if my council doesn't cooperate, I'm not above begging them for a chance."

 

Begging them for a chance to do what? Fill out a BSA registration form? They can NOT stop you. You can get registration forms from your current council's offices, the neighboring council's offices, or off of the Internet.

 

 

GS-CS Leader, I too am sorry to hear that you will pull your son out of Cub Scouts completely, if all of the families can not join the same Pack. What a shame. How does your son feel about that decision?

 

As many people have told you, the BSA council, district, DE, UC, etc, etc, have ABSOLUTELY NO SAY in what council or unit boys & their families register. Requiring your DE to give your Pack families "written permission" to join another Pack, when that permission is NOT necessary, is ludicrous, to say the least. In making this demand, this other Pack has effectively said they don't want any of your families to join, but can't think of a GOOD reason to tell you, so they have come up with a STUPID one.

 

Forget them.

 

Talk to your current families & let them know that "Pack B" is a no-go. If you decide to take your son out of Scouting at this point, that is your choice. However, it would NOT be what I would do.

 

I would pick another Pack that worked best for MY son & MY family, & send that Pack our registrations. Then I would let the other families know where I was registered, give them all registration forms along with a short run down of all area Packs. I would then tell them they had to make their OWN decisions on where/what they wanted to do based on what was best for THEIR boy & THEIR family. There is NO issue of being "scummy" or "abandoning" anyone. It is simply letting every family make it's OWN decision.

 

 

(This message has been edited by ScoutNut)

[GS-CS_leader]

Newbie Den Leader:

>I was going to suggest that you consider being a Cubmaster for your Pack, but it sounds like you >have your hands full being involved in both Girl Scouts and Cubs and that may not be feasible for >you.

>

>In many situations, with a Pack size of 10 boys, you can be both CM and den leader without a >problem. This would save your Pack and allow the boys to finish out their Cub Scout program

>before they crossover to Boy Scouts. You might even pick up some recruits along the way. With

>your experience and care, you can provide a quality program for the Cubs. A small Pack can still

> be a great Pack.

That would be like giving my son the same kind of experience as I have for my GS troop. Now that I know about the CS Pack structure, I understand why there are supposed to be GS "school organizers" (= CM). However, having been the only troop at my school for 7 years, except for a couple of years when there was a struggling Brownie Troop, this higher organization couldn't exist. Instead, I tried to make my own arrangements with some leaders of other troops for joint campfires (with mixed success). For my area, the pack structure is difficult to implement because it requires a lot more people and more adult volunteers than just the den leaders. But I like the concept.

 

In addition to the fact that I am too overloaded with other things to try to single-handedly carry our pack (I've watched the CC and BDL husband and wife team burn themselves out with that), there is the worry that even the 10 boys we expect to have next year would dwindle. When is a pack "too small"? Given that there are full packs within a few miles of us, it doesn't seem to be in the best interest of the scouts to force them to get less then the full experience. It would be a different story if we were in an area with no other packs. Most importantly, the Wolf den leader has said that he is not willing to continue if his den can't join another pack.

 

Of all my options, continuing with our current pack is the one that I have most firmly ruled out since it benefits no one but the DE, UC, and others at the council who could still count the boys in their numbers.

[bbng]

I've read through this thread a few times, and first, welcome.

 

My single biggest concern here is you and your son. It seems that this pack and a few others don't measure up to what you'd want or expect, and I'd caution you to realize that it's quite possible none will. Even Pack B might encounter tough times; that's normal. Cub Scouting is fun, and sadly, you don't seem to be having fun. Most likely, that means your son may not be either. Please don't worry so much about the others. Yes, share where you go and what you like about, do what you can to help others find a pack and maybe go with you, but I can tell you that when our son made a choice of troop, it was the best thing he could have done. The rewards keep on coming, and it's all because he visited, he met the Scouts, he decided what he liked and didn't like, and then asked if we'd sign him up. We registered where he registered. This is doable with Cubs too, and I hope your son has a chance to have all the Cub Scouting fun that it's possible to have (and that's a LOT of fun!)

 

Good luck, and I'll echo what others have said: you don't need and most likely will not be given permission from anyone else to go to a different pack or troop.

[MarkS]

GS-CS...

 

All you need for the boys is one of these: http://www.scouting.org/forms/28-102.pdf . Just fill it out and check the "TRANSFER FROM" box filling in the appropriate info. There is no reason any pack you want your boys to join should say no.

 

All you need for the adults is one of these: http://www.scouting.org/forms/28-501.pdf . Just fill it out, and check the "TRANSFER FROM" box filling in the appropriate info. However, the Committee Chair of the unit you want to join has to approve new leaders and their needs may not be consistent with the job you want to do. If only all packs were so lucky to have multiple volunteers for the same jobs.

 

Other than those signing the forms, no other scout representative need be involved.

 

Mark(This message has been edited by MarkS)

[GS-CS_leader]

MarkS:

>There is no reason any pack you want your boys to join should say no.

This thread is admittedly too long for most people to want to wade through. But there are indeed issues explained in previous posts.

 

>However, the Committee Chair of the unit you want to join has to approve

>new leaders and their needs may not be consistent with the job you want to

>do. If only all packs were so lucky to have multiple volunteers for the

>same jobs.

As stated in previous posts, Pack B has NO DENs at the level of my son or the other den in our pack. Pack B doesn't have any problem with me being a leader if we should join them. I'd actually welcome the opportunity to have someone else lead my son's den (I was quite happy as just a "helpful parent" and not a "leader" when my son first joined CS), but Pack B does not have any such person. Pack B is just spooked by the possibility that if they take us in they will incur ill-will among scouters in both of the two councils. This is understandable since they are just recovering from their pack's own "near death experience".

 

If you are curious or have time to kill, you can read the earlier posts of this thread and my next post for many, many more details.

 

But thanks for your concern.

 

[GS-CS_leader]

Scoutnut:

>Yup, in GSUSA, the council owns the Troop, it's money & it's equipment.

And in BSA the CO *technically* owns all of the above. I have to say that from my perspective it is ludicrous to suggest that GSUSA is more controlling than BSA. However, the BSA/GSUSA debate, which I do not wish to continue, belongs on another thread which you may start if you want. I probably should never have mentioned my GS council experiences on this thread in the first place, but I was trying to explain why I was expecting the worse and showing that I had already dealt with scouting staff who almost caused me to drop out out of scouting. Self-serving adults are found in ANY youth group organization, regarless of "business models" or official policy--Just browse through other threads to find examples of this in the BSA. I guess I just got carried away in writing about my GS council experiences because I'm still angry about it.

 

>You don't have to convince your current district of ANYTHING. What you do NOT

>seem to understand is that, beyond the inconvenience of losing a unit, your

>council could CARE LESS what Pack or council you people register with.

Forgive me for being snide, but are you so sure that those little knot badges (and other kinds of recognition) don't give any incentive to some scouters to try to keep members in their own district? ALL scouters OUGHT to care more about the youth than numbers and money, but that it not always the reality.

 

>"Although if my council doesn't cooperate, I'm not above begging them for a

>chance."

>

>Begging them for a chance to do what? Fill out a BSA registration form?

>They can NOT stop you. You can get registration forms from your current

>council's offices, the neighboring council's offices, or off of the

>Internet.

I'm already registered as a BSA den leader. I'm talking about being welcomed into a new pack, not registration issues. The "them" I'm referring to is not the council, but rather Pack B which is the pack that I really think is the right one for us.

 

>GS-CS Leader, I too am sorry to hear that you will pull your son out of Cub

>Scouts completely, if all of the families can not join the same Pack. What a

>shame. How does your son feel about that decision?

I've changed my mind. See below.

 

> In making this demand, this other Pack has effectively said they don't want

>any of your families to join, but can't think of a GOOD reason to tell you,

>so they have come up with a STUPID one.

After extensive discussions over the past two months with the CM, I am sure that is not the case. They just got a bit "spooked" when they heard rumors about possible problems.

 

>I would pick another Pack that worked best for MY son & MY family

I DID pick the Pack that I think will work best for "MY son & MY family"---And at this point I still believe that Pack B is the best choice, but only if I can bring along my whole den (see below). I figure if I can bring along my whole den, then having the other den come with us won't be a problem. To be honest, when I started to investigate our options, I didn't give much if any weight to the Wolf den's needs and I didn't care too much if they wanted to change packs with us. I still don't, except that I don't want the Wolf den parents to think I tried to dump them. It was pure chance that Pack B also had no Wolf den so that den could also help them complete their pack. I encouraged the Wolf den leader to look into all possible options for his den himself and I gave him all the information that I collected. He told me that he would not necessarily want to do what my den decided, but he now says he definitely wants to switch packs and likes the idea of joining Pack B.

 

I believe that joining any other pack without the rest of my den is so much worse for my son that I'm willing to put all my efforts into finding a way for the den to stay together. Except for the current BDL, the other families lack the confidence or commitment to scouting to make their own decisions or in the case of the autistic boy, I think they do not want to put their son into a group with all new boys and leaders (He has known the other boys since kindergarten). I believe there is 0% chance that those boys could end up in different packs from the BDL's son or my son; they are far more likely to drop out of scouting. In fact, one boy's older brother did drop out of scouting because our pack could not get a Webelos den going. These families just want to follow the leaders and trust them to make the right decision.

 

bbng:

>My single biggest concern here is you and your son. It seems that this pack

>and a few others don't measure up to what you'd want or expect, and I'd

>caution you to realize that it's quite possible none will. Even Pack B

>might encounter tough times; that's normal.

I don't think I'm looking for a pack to "measure up"---but I do need a pack whose meetings are on nights that fit in our schedule and it seems pointless to switch to a pack that is failing for the same reason that ours is. I realize that Pack B could encounter tough times---it is still in the process of being resurrected from tough times. But I feel that it has a bright future, I have come to really like the CM, and I feel that it offers the best possibility for keeping my den together (more on that below). That's why I am trying to work through the current obstacles instead of going back to "pack shopping".

 

>Cub Scouting is fun, and sadly, you don't seem to be having fun.

Nawh. I've had a great time with CS---more fun than I even expected. That's why I let myself be talked into being a leader (despite feeling that I had my hands full already with GS and my work) and why I've put in so much effort into finding a way to keep my pack's boys in scouting.

 

>Most likely, that means your son may not be either.

If that were the case, we'd be dropping out for sure. He loves CS. My son knows that I've been somewhat preoccupied by efforts to find a new pack for us, but that doesn't seem to have affected his feelings for CS.

 

>Please don't worry so much about the others. Yes, share where you go and what

>you like about, do what you can to help others find a pack and maybe go with

>you, but I can tell you that when our son made a choice of troop, it was the

>best thing he could have done.

This kind of comment has caused me to think about why should I want so much to keep our den together. Then I realized that one aspect of CS that is really good for my son is the social aspect. He even spent some time in first grade in a special "social skills" small pull-out group with a social worker after his teacher noticed that he spent every recess by himself. He now has lots of friends that he plays with on the playground, but he is still weak in some social skills. His CS den has given him a great opportunity to get to know the boys in a way that he wouldn't in school or playdates or extra-curricular activities. This year our CS den of 6 boys is just the right size (it is small, but we have an autistic boy, 2 boys with ADD, and other boys with behavior issues). So my son would really like to stay in the same den with these boys and might have a harder time than a typical boy being a new boy in a completely new den, especially one in which most of the other members have been together since Tigers (my son will be a Webelo I next year). I will continue to try to keep our den together because I do believe that it is the best for my son.

 

On the other hand, questions and comments on this thread encouraged me to have a talk with my son about what he wants as far as CS. He loves CS and wants to continue, preferably with his current den with the same boys and the current DL and myself as leaders. However, if it is the only way for him to continue, he would be willing try a new pack by himself. So if it comes to that, I'll try to find one for him. It would likely be in the "other council" because I already determined that the ones not too far from us in our own council are not suitable, while there are quite a few in the next town over in Pack B's district. I wouldn't expect there to be any issues with a single scout changing councils, it's only having a whole pack leave one council for another that is sticky.

 

So thank you to everyone for encouraging me to think harder about what CS means for my son outside of all the foolish politics. I was a bit upset when I started this thread, but I think things are going to work out OK in the end.(This message has been edited by GS-CS_leader)

[ScoutNut]

"Scoutnut:

Yup, in GSUSA, the council owns the Troop, it's money & it's equipment.

And in BSA the CO *technically* owns all of the above. I have to say that from my perspective it is ludicrous to suggest that GSUSA is more controlling than BSA. However, the BSA/GSUSA debate, which I do not wish to continue, belongs on another thread which you may start if you want."

 

 

OK - I never said ANYTHING about GSUSA being more controlling than BSA. I was simply verifying for John-in-KC the fact that GSUSA Councils do indeed OWN their individual Troops, as he thought. I was also correcting a comment made by you on the purpose of VISTAs.

 

I do NOT "debate" GSUSA vs BSA. There is no point to it. They are 2 completely different organizations, with 2 completely different ways they are put together & run. It would be like "debating" arm chairs vs recliners!

 

 

"Forgive me for being snide, but are you so sure that those little knot badges (and other kinds of recognition) don't give any incentive to some scouters to try to keep members in their own district?"

 

Yes, I am sure. The Scouters that I know in my District are much more interested in 1) the boys, 2) their own units, 3) and/or helping the District out with program, training, etc, to worry about where 10 boys from some dying Pack are transferring to. The District Exec might care, & try to keep the unit going, he is being PAID to do that, but bottom line is the DE can't do a thing if the folks in the unit don't want to continue with it.

 

Because your Pack & Pack B continue to insist that there be more drama involved in all of this, over & above the simple filling out the transfer portion of a BSA registration form for everyone involved, I can see nothing else that we can tell you.

 

I am glad that your family has decided to continue, even if the others do not.

 

Good Luck to you.

 

 

[t158sm]

"I wouldn't expect there to be any issues with a single scout changing councils, it's only having a whole pack leave one council for another that is sticky. "

GS-CS: Please listen. I've been in Scouting for almost 30 years.

MOST OF THE TIME COUNCILS DO NOT INTERACT AMONG THEMSELVES ESPECIALLY NOT AT THE LOCAL LEVEL. Please will all of you get over this, join in with the new pack and live happy ever after.

[Lisabob]

GS-CS,

 

I don't think I can be any more emphatic than all the previous posters about the fact that your council can't stop you from transferring, and the pack B whom you are considering joining would be idiotic to do so.

 

What I can tell you is that I also live on the edge of a council (actually three councils) and I have helped people do exactly what you are contemplating. In our pack we had a couple of boys from another council and in our troop there are at least 3 boys from other councils. We even have one family with one boy in our pack, a second boy in a pack in the second council, and a third boy in a troop in the third council! (well ok I think they're a little over the top but that's their preference.)

 

Some of them joined us because they used to live in our town and then moved but wanted to stick with us; some were escaping from a lousy situation with their previous unit and liked ours better; some, it has to do with parental custody issues. It just is not that big a deal. It happens more often than you think.

 

We also switched packs (though not councils, but I understand the adult politics because I dealt with it then too) when my son was finishing up 2nd grade - our whole den moved in fact and it caused some temporary hard feelings among certain adults but you know what? THat's it. Didn't last, wasn't a big deal, my son LOVED the new pack (and so did I) and he got a better scouting experience in the long term. And that's what it is supposed to be about.

 

Just have fun and let your son have fun with cubs. Don't let it become a big adult production! Plenty of that in the "real" world.

 

Lisa'bob

[MarkS]

GS-CS...

 

I read the thread.

 

You asked what the rules are for transferring to another unit and I told you. All you have to do is fill out the applications. Unless the applicants are unwilling to subscribe to the Declaration of Religious Principle and to the Bylaws of the Boy Scouts of America, the pack must accept them. Albiet, the pack may want to refer individuals with special needs to a special needs unit but that doesn't mean the unit is allowed to refuse their membership.

 

As far as the other issues you indicated. All of them are manufactured by you and the leaders of the other Pack. The only ones putting up roadblocks to you merging are your units is you (the leaders of both units, that is).

 

My advice is to concentrate on putting together a great program in your bigger and better unit. If you have a great program, most other problems solve themselves.