Hazing

[dan]

youngblood

hell is your word not mine

 

How many 1st year scouts are lost because they are terrified that they may have or have got up and sing a little song like I am a little teapot! And now they think they have done something wrong! lost something, big deal! we all have misplaced things.

This is an answer we will never know!

This is not constructive discipline.

Having the patrol get up and do a planed skit will help a shy scout get over fear of public speaking more effectively than public embarrassing!

For the scout that is very outgoing can sing very well, this would be no big deal, but for the scout that is bashful cannot carry a tune is bucket he may just disappear from the program!

A boy that could have really used the program was turned away by people who do not know the program.

 

But, why do I bother people will just say, Well not all boys are cutout to be scouts!

 

 

[dan]

youngblood

Oh yeah, it also does not meet with BSA poilcies!

 

The lastest one I found.

 

All persons responsible for youth safety must understand and appreciate Scouting's position of zero tolerance for child abuse or victimization in any form. Unit leaders should report any suspected abuse to the local council Scout executive.

 

Hazing and Initiations

All forms of hazing, initiations, ridicule, or inappropriate teasing are prohibited and should not be allowed.

 

Rooster

Says if you can point out where it says singing for lost items in hazing we will stop.

After reading the above you need to call your Scout executive, and report your unit and see if you read the policy correct or not!

 

[FScouter]

Singing a silly song sounds kind of dumb to me. But it hardly sounds like hazing.

 

In our troop, lost items are turned over to the Scoutmaster. Scouts that cant find their things know who to check with. He may or may not have the lost item, but either way, the boy gets a chance for a little discussion with the Scoutmaster.

 

[sst3rd]

As I stated earlier in this discussion, the Scouting program is being brought down to the lowest common denominator. Hazing and abuse are "victim defined." If the Scout is in any way put in a possible position where he may possibly be abused or hazed by "HIS" understanding, this situation is not allowed to happen. The adult leaders are charged with seeing that these possibilities DON'T happen. Of course, this is an impossibility, but we adult leaders must try. Traditions must be removed and replaced by the safest possible environment that can be created. With a lot of work, the basic character of the BSA program can be maintained.

[Bob White]

Ed,

You wrote, "Time to get the head out of the books & get back in the real Scouting world!"

 

I have been a unit leader for 27 consecutive years. I don't know how you want me to get back to something I haven't left?

 

"Scouting isn't meant to be a "glass house". Scouting is to teach boys good values."

 

Scouting is meant to be a safe haven free from all forms of bullying, harrassment and abuse, not because I say so but because the BSA says so. If that is not understood by the leaders in the unit you serve then perhaps it is time you got your head into a book and learned todays scouting program.

 

It's not that singing is the worse thing you can make a scout do. It's just that, as the original post mentioned, it is no longer an acceptable practice in the BSA. That point was made not by me but by another district's training team. Like the rule or not it is the rule. Do you also teach the scouts in the unit you serve to only obey the rules they like?

 

"By caving into the politically correct crowd you do the boy no good."

 

I believe I do them more good by following the program than by hiding behind pointless stunts and calling it character development.

 

Bob White

 

 

 

 

 

[sctmom]

First, I want to tell Sdriddle you have started the most active "discussion" this board has seen in a couple of months. hehehe

 

Bob, I stand up and applaud you. Dan, you also.

 

Dan says:

Hazing and Initiations

All forms of hazing, initiations, ridicule, or inappropriate teasing are prohibited and should not be allowed.

 

 

 

Making someone sing a silly song is ridicule. Therefore a form of hazing. Hazing doesn't have to be physical. Even though that scout that just threw up because of being ridiculed may argue that his was a physical event.

 

All of you that are for this type of "discipline" say that it is trivial. Well, why risk losing boys over something so trivial? Losing items is one of those things that has truly natural consequences --- spend time looking for it, do without it, replace it or explain to others why you lost it.

 

Yes, my son would have to answer to me if he lost something, especially if it is something I paid for or need to replace.

 

I can tell you if I forgot my sleeeping bag you wouldn't have to make me sing a song to have learned a lesson. I forgot the campstove on a personal campout a couple of years ago. I learned my lesson, it's hard to cook certain things over a charcoal fire. Been camping about 10 times since then and have yet to forget the campstove. Didn't sing one note!

 

A few months ago after my son's first troop campout, there was the normal collection of items at the next troop meeting that had ended up at the wrong homes. The owners had to come forward and get them. Nothing else was said or done, those kids were embarrassed enough to walk up in front of the troop to get their coat (big thing to lose) or other item.

 

Again, is it worth losing scouts over something that is so small and simple? It may be small and simple to you, but to a kid it could be devastating. You decide.

 

Dan and Bob, you can sit next to me and OGE.

 

[OldGreyEagle]

Sure, Dan and Bob are welcome, but first you guys have to know if I am sitting around a campfire, I will sing. And I can count down Green grow the rushes ho faster than anyone I know, so theres a song we will sing, and then I love to Sing Rise and Shine and of course, the adult leaders will "fall" for either the "line of suckers" or "sap running through the trees".

 

I guarantee a fun, silly and memorable campfire and all are welcome

[Quixote]

sctmom says A few months ago after my son's first troop campout, there was the normal collection of items at the next troop meeting that had ended up at the wrong homes. The owners had to come forward and get them. Nothing else was said or done, those kids were embarrassed enough to walk up in front of the troop to get their coat (big thing to lose) or other item.

 

I can't believe your troop made the owners come up in front of the rest of the troop and - your words - embarrassed them in such a humiliating way - how is this not hazing and singing a song is? Just because they weren't up there for long doesn't change the fact that they had to go up in front of a group.

 

I'm sorry if i sound flippant about it, but a boy singing in front of his friends being called hazing is borderline ridiculous.

 

I have read the GTSS at the bsa website and in the posts above, and IN MY JUDGEMENT it doesn't count as hazing. Are there better ways to teach responsibility and accountability? probably, but I'm sure even in Bob White's troop there are some traditions and PLC rules other troops wouldn't agree with - That's what is so great about Scouting - it has a slightly different taste in each Troop.

 

YIS

Quixote

[dan]

Quixote

Since you have read the GTSS, do the right thing and do what the GTSS says to do contact your scout excetitive and ask him, what his take is on this.

 

[sctmom]

OGE,

Can we sing Greasy Grimy Gopher Guts?

And that song about the man who took his troops up the hill and down the hill, when you are up you are up, and when you are down you are down.(whoa that gets those knees to hurting)

 

I tried to teach my Webelos this song to the tune of Three Blind Mice...they just weren't impressed.

 

Road Kill Stew, road kill stew

Tastes so good

Just like it should

First you go down to the interstate

Wait for a critter to meet it's fate

Take it home and make it great

Road kill stew, road kill stew

 

(see I do have a sense of humor)

 

 

[Bob White]

OGE,

No one is saying scouts can't sing or have fun. The BSA says you cannot have fun at someone elses expense or embarass a scout as punishment no matter how "fun" the leader might think it to be.

 

Bob White

[Rooster7]

Like the rule or not it is the rule. Do you also teach the scouts in the unit you serve to only obey the rules they like?

 

I teach them to follow the rules that are defined, not unstated ones that some others presume to be implied.

 

Sctmom, OGE, and dan,

 

I would happily pull up a log next your campfire as well. From your posts, while I can safely assume that we would disagree on a number of issues, I feel fairly confident that you would not discount my experiences and/or training, or insinuate the same to be inferior to yours.

 

I am humble enough to admit, that while my opinions are strong, I may in fact be wrong on occasion. That's not to imply that I am wrong about this particular issue. Nevertheless, I am aware that I am human and that my interpretation or understanding of a policy could be flawed. I am open to that possibility. In other words, I can appreciate passionate debate and the strong convictions that others may have, but those who submit their opinions as if they are undisputable facts repulse me.

 

As far as "doing the right thing", this applies to us all. Have you called your local council? I have. In nearly every circumstance, the answer has been "use your better judgment and to error on the side of caution." While to some, this may mean, "Don't do it" or "If you have to ask, don't do it", I strongly disagree. A group of adults should be able to look at these situations and apply their "better judgment". That does not mean become a bunch of Chicken Littles. It simply means examine the situation and ensure that Scouts are not abused.

 

Glass bubble? I refuse to believe that this is BSA's intention. A safe haven is not Fantasy Island. It does not mean remove all obstacles and challenges. If this were true, Eagle Scout would not have the meaning it has today. Do you think society would place any value in that accomplishment if it was all accomplished within a glass bubble? Safe from abuseyes, but not impervious to all the challenges that the world may have to offer. This is counterintuitive to the program. How can we develop a child's character if he is not given challenges? Singing alone in front of a group is a challenge. It's not hazing. If a troop forced an unwilling child to do this, I would agree that it constitutes hazing. Likewise, if a troop forced an unwilling child to hike five miles or sleep on the ground without a tent, I would consider that hazing too. Anything can be abused. As others have said time and time again, that's why we (the adults) are here. For the safety of the boys, we need to ensure common sense is applied, whether that be taking a hike or applying troop discipline. It does not mean removing anything that has the potential for abuse. If that were case, we would have to shut the whole program down. There isn't a single activity in life that doesn't have some potential for abuse.

 

[OldGreyEagle]

mom, you mean

 

The Grand Old Duke of York

He had ten thousand men

He marched them up the hill

and marched them down again, and when you're up you'er up

and when your're down your're down and when your only halfway up, you're neither up or down

 

Or, an Updated version

 

Good Capt Kirk,

He had 10, 000 men

He beamed them off the Enterprise and

Beamed them on again

 

And when your off your off

And when your on your on,

But if your neither off or on, your nowhere to be found

 

(to be politically correct, you could use Capt Janeway to get a female character invovled)

 

Yuck Yuck Yuck

 

Rooster, I mean this with repect and I hope I explain this correctly. There was once a poster on this forum whose prose and content upset quite a few people, so many in fact he doesnt post here anymore (although his 3 months are up and I miss him)and by my count you defended his postings at least three times. I understand you didnt agree with his style, but you agreed with his message. Perhaps Bob White writes with too much "confidence" for you. He calls it confidence and you may call it arragance. Whatever it is, I havent seen a lot of calls for OGE's or Rooster's opinion but I see him sought a lot. I have taken issue with Bob a few times, but I realize Mr White is a valuable resource to this forum and I am glad he is here. Then again, I am glad you are here as well so I guess there is no accounting for taste.

Beleive me, when I want a point of Boy Scout policy clarified, I know Bob can do it. It may not always be what I wanted to see, but I know it is accurate.

 

(BTW I am selling I (Heart) Bob White T-Shirts at ScamsRus@ReallyAYahoo.com

 

And Bob, My song selection was a review of songs that have apparrently been banned from a Scouting Council and I wanted to show that I am not a dedicated follower of PC, I just cant stand hazing (See: RE: Left Handed Smoke Shifter)

 

It seems funny the leaps that are made here, the group that said they thought singing for lost items was wrong was branded as trying to set up a perfectly safe, dissappointment free program when what we meant was, we didnt think it was right that a scout had to sing to get back a lost item.

 

The destruction of western civilization wasnt brought up by the anti-forced signing group, just our worthy adversaries.

 

And Bob, Dan, and Mom and anyone I missed, if I explained you wrong, please comment as much. If I am wrong I guess I should have to comb the next campboree for 50 feet of shoreline (as it will be done without a natural sourve of water I could be in for a long night)

 

(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

[Bob White]

Thanks OGE,

I appreciate your participation as well. Please don't think that knowing what is in the manuals, and being able to deliver the program in the field are mutually exclusive.

 

Bob White.

[OldGreyEagle]

Bob,

 

If I implied or expressed that knowledge of the manuals and practical experience were mutually exclusive, I miscommunicated my thoughts. They are very much compatible