Unruly CubScout - keep or kick-out?

[SMT99]

With only 1 Scout meeting left, and the end of this seasons Scouting program, we have a few Cub Scouts that are tired of being "Bullied" around by a certain Scout. One parent told us tonight, that her son has actually cried on numerous occasions and doesn't want to come to Scouts anymore. The parent has told us that he won't be back in the fall because of her son being picked on constantly by this certain Scout. I don't want to see any boy drop out because of bullying. Do wqe wait until the next season and speak to the parents? Do we tell the parents that their boy is not allowed back into the Scouting program? What should we do. Any guidance would be greatly appreciated. I know if it were up to me, he'd be out. But there are others that I have to think about.

[EagleInKY]

With only one meeting left, it's important to not let emotions mess things up. Encourage everyone to keep cool and give it time to work out. After all, there's not going to be any further damage after the last meeting.

 

I'd first talk to your Cubmaster or Committee Chair. Find out if your pack has any policies or procedures around this. Most don't, but maybe your does.

 

I'd also talk to the parents of the problem scout. Let them know that there are serious concerns. You can't continue into next year with the current behavior issues. Maybe with some maturity over the summer, and some good parenting, he'll come back better in the fall. If not, you'll have to have some difficult conversations at that time. Hopefully the parents will either make some improvements or hit the road on their own.

 

On the flip side, I can tell you that there was a scout that I nearly forced out several years ago. It wasn't bullying, or I probably would have. His was just your typical disruptive ADHD-ish behavior. A few scouts may have left because of him (I know of one). Today, he's still sometimes immature and disruptive. But he's a Life Scout, Den Chief and can often be one of our funnest scouts to be around. I'm glad I had patience with him... and sometimes still need it. But I think he's going to get so much out of scouting that it's worth every grey hair.

[Eamonn]

Man oh man do I hate that "Kick" word.

Before I go on -What is your position in the Pack?

The G2SS states:

Adult leaders of Scouting units are responsible for monitoring the behavior of youth members and interceding when necessary. Parents of youth members who misbehave should be informed and asked for assistance in dealing with it.

So I have to ask "Where were the leaders? Why was this allowed?

Maybe the wrong people are in need of a kick?

The Guide goes on to state:

The unit committee should review repetitive or serious incidents of misbehavior in consultation with the parents of the child to determine a course of corrective action including possible revocation of the youth's membership in the unit.

 

If problem behavior persists, units may revoke a Scout's membership in that unit. When a unit revokes a Scout's membership, it should promptly notify the council of the action.

 

The unit should inform the Scout executive about all incidents that result in a physical injury or involve allegations of sexual misconduct by a youth member with another youth member.

 

So have the committee met and discussed this?

Have they met with the parents and tried to work out a course of corrective action ?

It seems that the Adults didn't step in and nip this in the bud -When it ought to have been nipped.

Start following the guide now.

Deal with the problem now.

Involve the parents now.

And maybe think about looking for adult leaders who will do what they are supposed to ASAP.

Eamonn.

 

 

[Lisabob]

Working with "unruly" kids is really tough. Does this young man have any underlying causes for his behavior that might be addressed? (typical causes but by no means the only ones: abusive situations at home, lack of parenting, or medical problems)

 

We've had experiences with difficult scouts at the cub level, including a couple who were forced out of another pack in town and joined ours. Here are some things we found worked pretty well.

 

1. Make sure you have good communications with the parents. You aren't their replacement by any means but at least while that boy is at scouts, you are partners with the family in helping to teach the boy. Can't do it if you don't have an open line of communication.

 

My experience is that most parents know when their child is a "problem" child because they've had that same experience with school, sports, etc.. Most of them will appreciate your honest effort to work with them for the good of their boy. Especially if it comes across in a caring manner instead of an accusatory one.

 

The only place where this doesn't work is when the parents are the source of "junior's" problems - but that's relatively rare and most of the time those folks aren't going to spend the time, effort, or money getting their kid involved in scouts anyway.

 

2. If necessary, set up a requirement that a parent/guardian attend all activities with the boy - no drop offs. And get that parent actively involved (maybe as a trained, registered leader even) since they'll be there anyway.

 

3. In the case of one of the boys who joined our pack after being told not to return to his previous pack: part of the problem stemmed from physical contact (pushing, shoving, etc.) and part of the problem stemmed from the type of authority he responds to in a positive manner. The den leader whose den he joined did two things. She set up clear boundaries for him from the start. And she didn't try to out-bully him, which his previous leaders did (they are big guys and used to using their size and loud voices to get kids to behave). The boy had an incident-free year in our pack and just recently crossed over into the troop my son is in. So far, so good.

 

Sometimes you just need to use a different approach until you find one that works.

 

 

You may well have lost some scouts and that's a shame. Eamon's right that adult leaders could've stepped in sooner but I know from experience that this does not always happen even though it should. At least you're prepared to deal with it now.

 

In addition to figuring out how to approach the boy who is at the center of the problem, I think you also owe it to the other boys who you know are leaving, to steer them toward another pack in town (if there is one). They probably aren't going to come back to your pack no matter what at this point but that doesn't mean they should quit scouting. Give their parents all the contact info you can gather for the other packs and offer to be a contact person yourself, to help parents find a suitable pack for their boys in the fall. Make sure that you talk this over with your CC and CM so it doesn't appear you are going "behind their backs" and syphoning off members from your own pack though.

 

 

Good luck and here's hoping for a smooth last meeting for your pack.

 

Lisa'bob

 

[Newbie Den Leader]

SMT99,

 

Since I'm a "Newbie", I have not experienced this type of behavior, but I will share what our experienced Cubmaster told us.

 

If you have a serious behavior problem that is disruptive to your den meetings, inform the parents with the hope that they will intercede to correct junior's problem. If there is still no improvement, then make junior sit "in the corner" during den meetings with absolutely no participation with the other boys. Remind him that he is welcome to participate in den activities only if he behaves and respects the other boys. The choice is his.

 

If things never improve and he continues to be a problem, you can remove him from membership, suspend him from meetings, or simply refuse to give him any rank advancement, belt loops, arrow points, etc.

 

The bottom line: Lovingly remind him that you care about him, but his behavior is not acceptable, will not be tolerated, and he will not be welcomed at further Pack or Den meetings.

 

--Jeff

 

[yellow_hammer]

I use a carrot and stick approach to behavior. It's too late for you to do something this year but here is what I've done with cubs...

 

Carrot:

Get the boys to make a list of den rules. Put them on a poster that is displayed at each meeting. Light a candle at the beginning of a meeting. If one of the rules is broken the candle is snuffed out. If the candle burns down to nothing (it takes several meetings) then the boys get a treat of some kind. I've done ice cream parties and pizza parties.

 

Stick:

Each boy gets a cardstock triangle with their name on it that is displayed close to the rules poster. When a boy breaks a rule he loses a triangle corner (just snip it off). When a boy loses three corners he is not allowed at the next den meeting and the first meeting back he must sit in the back of the room with a parent. After that he can return to meetings as normal with a new triangle. If he loses three corners on his second triangle then he cannot come back at all - this has never happened with me.

 

Good luck!

[John-in-KC]

I see in a couple more recent postings a lot of HAMMER and not a lot of KISMIF!

 

WHO IS AKELA??

 

The Den Leader is Akela

The Den Chief is Akela

Mom and Dad are Akela

 

Leverage the fact that Mom and Dad are Akela. Do not let your Den become a branch of BSA (Baby-Sitters of America).

 

Folks really need to critically read Lisa'Bob's approach to this. She has truly cracked the code.

 

I do like yellow hammer's carrot, though

[yellow_hammer]

John,

 

It's difficult to make it fun with no help and eight boys if you let some of them get out of hand. Three of mine were "live wires" - good natured kids that couldn't be still very long. To hold their attention I had to keep things moving, there was no time to stop and take care of behavior problems on the spot so I just used this method to let them know they were out of line and heading for a consequence. After the meeting I'd have the boys tell their parent that they had lost a corner. Three of them didn't have dads at home so there weren't quite as many Akelas as you're probably used to.

 

With my approach *the boys make the rules* knowing what the consequences of not following them are in advance. All I did was enforce the rules they made themselves. In four years two boys had to sit out a meeting and return with their parent. The fact that they went through that tells me that the program was fun enough that they wanted to be there.

[Crew21_Adv]

SMT99,

 

Greetings!

 

You have already been given some good advice, as well as direct quotes from the Guide to Safe Scouting.

 

To me the decision and action is for the Committee.

 

I have a few questions though.

 

 

Is the "Bully" Cub Scout living up to the Law of the Pack? And, is it worth keeping one bully at the loss of a few good Cub Scouts?

 

There is a line between who can benefit from the Scouting program and who the Scouting program is here to serve.

 

All boys/youth can benefit, but our units should serve the youth that desire to be in the Scouting Program.

 

My final 2 cents....

To me, The Scouting program is the best educational and social arena for young boys and their families. But not all boys belong in Scouting. That is their choice not mine, and demonstrated in their actions and words.

 

Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

[Lisabob]

I agree with some posters' comments that there are times when a boy should not be in scouting. But on the cub end of things in particular I have seen a lot of cases where scouting is the only thing a boy has in his life where he even remotely fits in. Some kids don't fit in at school and aren't good at sports. Others who have behavioral or medical problems tend not to be too welcome in recreational team sports either. For some of these kids, even though they may not be the easiest to work with, scouting is all they've got and they actually enjoy and benefit from it.

 

Moreover, from observation it seems like some boys who are "problems" in cub packs just need to get matched up with adult leaders who know how to handle them. I am thinking of the boy I mentioned in my last post, who joined our pack after being "uninvited" from another. The leader of that other pack actually went out of his way to tell us how awful this boy is, warned us against allowing him to join our pack, and referred to him, in earshot of other people, as a "piece of ****." Not surprisingly, this boy, who I agree is hard to handle anyway, did NOT respond well to that kind of "leadership." In fact from my observation of that pack, it seemed like this boy and the leader fed off of each other's aggression, to the detriment of all.

 

We're not psychologists and there are times when we won't be able to get through to a boy. So yes, if a kid is truly a danger to others, we might have to ask him to leave if we can't find a better way to handle the situation. But I really hesitate to say that, at such a young age in a boy's life, this should be our solution except in very rare instances.

 

Lisa'bob

[John-in-KC]

YH,

 

... and here is something very close to a root level problem. You said:

 

"It's difficult to make it fun with no help (snip)"

 

First, you are never supposed to be on your own! 8-10 year old boys are by their very nature "on task, off task, next task", and without lots of support, it's difficult to supervise at a 8:1 ratio! That's why Scouting has positions for assistant den leaders, Den Chiefs, and even "Beth, please, can you come in this week and help with our game" for parents.

 

Second, (edited per FScouters comments below)

Den Chiefs are great in extending the capability of adult leaders!!! It's a Position of Responsibility for Star-Eagle, and older boys do like to play with younger boys. Please, though, remember that since Den Chiefs are youth program members in their own right, they cannot count for 2-deep leadership.

 

I strongly recommend you have an early discussion with your Cubmaster, Pack Trainer, and Committee Chair about getting additional adult support.

 

Otherwise, read through, critically and carefully, LisaBob's posts in this forum (and other forums). She's cracked a lot of the code on making the cub program work in the real world!

 

YIS John(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

[FScouter]

Having an assistant is highly recommended but not because the Guide to Safe Scouting says you must have one. The two rules in the G2SS are "no one-on-one contact", and two leaders on all trips and outings. There is no requirement that two adults be present for den meetings, or troop meetings.

[Newbie Den Leader]

There is no requirement that two adults be present for den meetings, or troop meetings.

 

Even if the requirement is not there, most leaders I know insist on having another adult (registered or not) present with them at all scout functions including meetings. The two adult rule is reinforced in my Pack not only for the protection of the boys but also for the adults.

 

 

 

[ScoutNut]

Back to the original questions -

 

"Do wqe wait until the next season and speak to the parents?"

 

No, that is how you got into this predicament in the first place. What you need to do NOW is talk to the parents ASAP! Tell them exactly what is going on & ask for their input & help correcting the situation.

 

 

"Do we tell the parents that their boy is not allowed back into the Scouting program?"

 

Without ever having talked to them about a problem with their son before? Absolutely NOT!

 

 

Since we very rarely get the full (or unbiased) picture on these forums, our advise could be WAY off base. However, from your post, it sounds like it is not JUST this boy that has caused this problem. The Pack leadership has a lot to do with it by not facing, and dealing with, this problem back when the very first incident occurred.

 

BTW - Why only 1 meeting left? Why is "this seasons Scouting program" over already? I have 5-7 more Den meetings, 2 more Pack meetings, 1 Pack campout & various Pack/Den outings, to go before June 1. Then we have 1-3 activities per month for June thru August, before we start up weekly again in September.

 

[Vicki]

Ummm, haven't read in this thread where consideration has been given to the cub and parents who are leaving the pack? Have you actually observed this cub being picked on by the "bully"? If the Pack Committee/Cubmaster/Den Leaders do get the courage to actually handle this situation appropriately (as in approach the bully's parents, try to work it through) the cub and his parents need to be encouraged to stay and try to be part of the solution.

 

Vicki