Committee Chair and ASM

[nighthawk]

Can the Troop Committee Chair also serve as an ASM? We have an ASM in our troop who we'd really like to have in the CC role some time in the future but neither he nor myself (the Scoutmaster) want to lose him as an ASM.

[OldGreyEagle]

I dont think you can be Committee Chair and ASM at the same time, but I will beleieve whatever Bob White says. The important point I want to make is that if he becomes CC and HAS to resign being ASM, who cares? He can still come on campouts as CC, he will still be counted as a registered Adult leader, the only thing that really will change is the position patch he wears and now he can sit in Board of reviews.

 

[Bob White]

Hi OGE,

Since you askedd.... according to the Guide to Safe Scouting "A unit leader may not serve simultaneously in any other position within the same unit." This is in bold print which means it is a policy not a guideline. There is one exception allowed. The Charter Organization Representative can also be a chartered as a committee member (not recommended but allowed).

 

OGE raises a good point. Just because he can't register in two positions does not mean he cannot go on campouts and help at troop meetings. I'd be hesitant having him serve on the Board of Reviews if he is going to be the CC and be active with the boys as an ASM. There is a purpose for not allowing SM and ASM to sit on Boards. It's to allow the scout a hearing before an impartial jury. Acting as an ASM may prejudice the individual toward the scout. Better to play it safe and give the advantage to the boy and not have the CC sit on Boards if he is active in an ASMs role as well.

Bob White

[Sdriddle]

Bob,

 

I am still new at the Boy Scout level and would like you to elaborate on CM or CC who are active with the boys sitting on the BOR. I know that we have a couple of CM's who attend almost every troop meeting and campout and also sit on Boards. One told me that he asks the boys about Baden Powell and turns them down if they don't know who he is and the date Scouting was founded. I thought this sounded a little off after attending Leader Essentials and Position Specif training. Is there a book about Board of Reviews and suggestions on who should or should not sit on them?

 

In regard to the original post, I agree with switching positions on paper. Many of us wear several hats with our packs and fill out the paperwork to make the recharter papers correct. I don't think the BSA wants to encourage people to get on a power trip by officially holding more than one position. Also, just think what your uniform shirt would look like if you wore a patch for every position that you "assist" with!

 

Sheila

[Bob White]

Hi Sheila,

Probably the best book to use is one we have mentioned several times on this board, The Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures manual. It will explain who sits on the boards and what the boards should do.

 

Your right about stemming the power trips but there is another vital reason for the rule of one person one job. there were situations in the past where a person was the Charter Rep and the Committee Chair and the unit leader. This allowed them to approve themselves of having the proper character to work with youth. No background checks were done, no one could question there membership or leadership, and boys were put at risk. So the one persomn one job rule keeps the checks and balances in place for a safer program.

 

Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[OldGreyEagle]

Sheila,

 

here is two links to some BOR resources:

 

http://www.usscouts.org/clipart/scoutdoc/advance/borguide.pdf

 

http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Trails/7919/bor_ques.htm

 

this will give you a starting place(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

[kd6rxy]

Bob White

 

You mentioned a possible problem with the CC being active with the boys and serving on the Board of review. I realize that this situation is the CC acting as an ASM. Mine is a bit different but similar.

 

Our CC will attend some outings with us to help with supervision, such as summer camp & rafting trips and at times, will march in parades, attend open houses, etc. But he usually does not interact with the boys on a regular basis, such as troop meetings and monthly campouts.

 

So my question is: How active would you say is too active?

 

Would it be inappropriate for him to sit on a board of review?

 

Please be paitient with me as I am new to being a scoutmaster as welll as new to posting.

[Bob White]

As human beings we all carry some baggage of experiences with us that we use to make decisions. not that it is always a bad thing to have, but at times we allow those experiences to make decisions for us before we hear the evidence. (NJ and some of the lawyers on this board can speak more eloquently on that) A Board of review needs to be as neutral as possible to let the scout's deeds and experiences give evidence of his advancement and growth. Choosing a good Board is like choosing a good jury. I would think you want people whose minds are not made up, but who have minds.

 

for that reason you cannot have Parents or Scoutmasters or asst.SM. ask the questions. They are too close to the candidate.

 

Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[kd6rxy]

I understand the reasons for certain people to not be allowed on the BOR.

 

Let me clarify my situation a bit. Our troop committee consists of the CC and two parents. I am the SM, I have one ASM who quite coming to meeitngs because it interfered with his seeing "Survivor." We have troop meetings only when one of the commttee member is there too. I have cancelled outings because we have no other adult leaders or supervision. And if we don't find some soon, I fear the worst! So, to me, A CC (with a van)who is interested in participating every couple months is a God send.

 

So, I guess I am back to the original question. How much involvement is too much? If we are to select a BOR like the a jury, then I guess the CC is out and we have to find people outside the troop to do the entire BOR job. The last jury selection I was involved in took over 40 people to get 12 that didn't know the 4 people involved. And that was out of a random selection of about 100 from the county! I really don't think we will have that luxury.

 

Maybe it is a question for the District or Council Advancement Committees.

[Mike Long]

When we were smaller every active adult except the SM sat on review boards.

 

In a perfect world the BSA approved structure and methods would be in place in all troop because everyone would be tripping over themselves to volunteer.

 

Here in the real world we all make do with what we have. If you don't have the support to function at full capacity you function as best you can, move forward with geting the troop where it needs to be and don't worry about it.

 

Pulling in people from outside the troop and scouting to sit on review boards is more trouble than it is worth. Think about the time needed to coordinate so that there won't be big delays in boys advancing.

 

Are there any former members of the Troop that aged out that would be williing to come back and sit on review boards? Sounds like a great job for aged out Eagle Scouts if you have any.

[Bob White]

As far as how much is too much that can't be answered from out in cyber land. You will need to determine that on a case by case basis. do what is fairest for the scout.

 

Looking outside the parents of the troop for committee members. Perfect world or not the Board must be made of committee members (except for the Eagle Board). Aged out eaagles is OK as long as they are 21 years of age or older so that they can register as a committee member.

 

Bob White

[FScouter]

Our committee consists strictly of parents of Scouts in the troop. All the Scouts know all the committee members quite well, and most of the boys have had sat in multiple boards of review with the same committee members.

 

Ideally, the boys would sit in front of different adults occasionally, including some they dont know well. On occasion, when we cant pull together enough committee members for a board of review, weve asked outside people to help. There is an elderly Eagle scout in the community, and one or two other strong people that do an excellent job. They are willing to help out in a pinch, and do so without complaint. But they are unwilling to fill out an adult leader application and become formal committee members. To them, that would signify an on-going commitment to the troop. Theyre willing to help out in a pinch, but dont want to be called every time.

 

I suppose the challenge is to assure them that we wont demand any more involvement than what they are willing to give, but to get them to sign an application anyway.

 

[kd6rxy]

Exactly right Fscouter! No one wants to commit to anything. I have to go outside the troop committee to get BOR members because the troop committee is made up of parents. I have yet to find anyone that is willing to commit to signing the paperwork, even if it means all they have to do is be on the BOR every couple months. I have stood up in church (our CO)every service for the month of February asking the people to do this. I got no response.

 

In the real world here, If I were running the fiasco they call little league baseball here, I'd have hundreds of people willling to help and sign on the bottom line! But the scouting program is something else, they will give almost anything but their time!

 

(To answer a previous question, we are a new troop only a year old. All scouts are between 11 and 15 years old. No older scouts.)

 

I think it is okay that the CC goes on a couple outings. I also think that should not disqualify him from the BOR. Knowing someones name and maybe sharing a meal or the day is not a bad thing. It may good this early in the boys scouting careers. I can "throw them to the wolves" so to speak later, like when they are ready for their first class BOR.

 

But if the BOR must consist of committee members as Bob White stated, then we are out of luck with BOR's. Does the IH count? He will do it but the way I understand it, he cannot register as a committee member. Does having a member of the BOR not be a member of the troop committee invalidate the BOR for the boy? Do we need to go back and redo the BOR when we find people willing to sign? Now is the time to rectify the situation, not when these boys are up for eagle a couple years from now.

[eisely]

As has been noted, there is absolutely nothing wrong with the CC going on outings, or supporting troop activities in other ways. I know of no prohibition against a CC being a merit badge counselor for example. As has also been noted, there is probably some benefit for the CC to have some direct contact with the scouts.

 

I guess that I have been fortunate to be affiliated with units that generally had adequate adult volunteer support. One always hopes for, and tries to encourage, more. The kind of appeal to a congregation that scoutmaster424 describes is unlikely to work however. The kind of approach described by Bob White in other threads of a more personalized one on one approach will yield better results. It may seem to be more time consuming, but it isn't really, when measured against the results obtained.

[bear]

Hi! Just read all the replies about being a CC and wanting to also wear the ASM hat. Great answers! I am a CC, have been for three years. During the past couple of years, our SM took on too many positions within the chartered org. (which is also his place of worship) I was very concerned that he was losing track of our boys, their ranks, advancement, etc. The other ASMs were also busy with their careers. I asked them if I could do some ASM work due to my concern as I had the time to keep the boys' advancement recorded properly, etc. (This was before the committee had an advancement person.) If your troop is small and new, I think it is good for all adult leadership to give each other hand. I also felt I could do a better job as a CC if I knew how the troop was run and researched the duties of the SM and ASMs. (I was also the first and still the only one to take my research as far as to get Woodbadge training.) Anyway, I am still a CC and still work as an ASM. Thankfully, our SM is starting to come around, we have many more ASMs who have come on board and have just finished their NLE and OLT courses. Sometimes it is helpful, in my opinion, for the CC to be aware when the SM needs more support and offer it until other adults step up and take on leadership positions.

 

Thanks for considering my opinion,

Bear (and a good 'ol Bear, too!)