ScoutNut Posted March 5, 2006 Share Posted March 5, 2006 Well, this certainly explains all of the inconsistencies I have been seeing. When this was first brought up I thought that it sounded an awful lot like it was a new version of the Seekers program. This feels a lot like National attempting to boost numbers for both Cubs & LFL at the same time. Their instructions are rather vague in the area that counts (co-ed or not) and since we are talking LFL, it IS co-ed (and school based). What it sounds like to me, is that for these pilot programs that let the girls participate based on the fact this is a LFL group, when 1st grade rolls around the boys will go into Tigers & the girls will go into 1st grade Seekers. You end up with more Cubs & an in-school LFL program. Although if they keep taking the boys for Cubs, & don't dual register them in LFL, the LFL will end up all girls. This needs a LOT of work! Lisa is right that the carry over between the 2 separate programs could generate problems. I would hope that the BSA lawyers have thought of all of that. I really am EXTREMELY GLAD I am NOT in a pilot Council!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evmori Posted March 5, 2006 Share Posted March 5, 2006 What it sounds like is a total mess! Once again the BSA initiates a program without thinking it through! Figures! Ed Mori Troop 1 1 Peter 4:10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nldscout Posted March 7, 2006 Share Posted March 7, 2006 LISABOB and ALL, I am also in the same Test Council as CNY. I asked the council on Saturday if Lions are Coed. Took them till today to get answer. According to the Council coordinater it is "NOT" designed to be a coed program. He said no where in the literature does it talk about girls. It talks on of Kindergarten age boys only. So if someone in the 3 test councils says it is coed, i would challange them to show it reference that says that. Paul(This message has been edited by nldscout) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaji Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 Still think it's a bad idea. Even more so if this bit about it being a Learning for Life program is true. It's either Cub Scouts or Learning For Life, don't try to cut it both ways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tami the Mom Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 I would love to see a Lion program for kindergarten boys! As a mother and an aunt of twins, both sets boy/girl, it was hard to explain to our boys why their sisters could be Daisies while they had to wait to be Tigers. And as a leader for both sets, I see how much fun the younger boys could be having. Isn't the whole point of a test program to work out the kinks? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaji Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 Any objections people have to the age group aside, I think half the reason people object is that, as we saw on the first page, many people remember the old Lion rank and how it was one of the crowning achievement of their Cub Scout days. To see it reinserted at the bottom is a bit demeaning in that regard, kind of like taking Life or Eagle out for a few years and then sticking them back in at the bottom of the stack as a new way to motivate scouts. If they'd call it something other than Lions and cut this LFL crap, I'd be willing to give the program a shot to see how it works out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaji Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 Any objections people have to the age group aside, I think half the reason people object is that, as we saw on the first page, many people remember the old Lion rank and how it was one of the crowning achievement of their Cub Scout days. To see it reinserted at the bottom is a bit demeaning in that regard, kind of like taking Life or Eagle out for a few years and then sticking them back in at the bottom of the stack as a new way to motivate scouts. If they'd call it something other than Lions and cut this LFL crap, I'd be willing to give the program a shot to see how it works out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John-in-KC Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 No, Kaji, please do not take my message wrong there. First, the YOUNGEST CUB EVER to earn the old Lion rank is pushing 50... very, very hard!!! Second, I was pointing the irony of "the more things change, the more they stay the same." MY ISSUE: Does National really think stretching the envelope down to 6 year olds will solve the problem? We've all but abandoned the Tiger concept of 1/1 direct involvement. TOO MANY PARENTS WANT BABY-SITTERS OF AMERICA, not another activity demanding their time working with their child While we are at it, I for one, would love to see us go back to the Bobcat pin vice the rank patch!!! (I am, though, just one Scouter). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mbscoutmom Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 What's your point about 50yos? Are we too old to count? Personally, I don't have a problem with adding kindergartners, and I think my husband, who earned the rank of Lion, himself, would like to see that rank used in Cub Scouts again. Having younger kids in dens is a good way to get parents more involved in scouts. Once involved, they tend to stay involved. Our Tiger den this year is where most of the new pack leadership is coming from. I don't know what we'd do without them. I just hope they work the bugs out of the program before they bring it to my council. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SSScout Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 Lion Cub= 1959. Back before I earned my dinosaur herding merit badge, I was a Cub, and my mom was a Denmom, and my dad cut up scrape lumber and sheets of cork and set out little pots of paint for lots of Thunderbird trophy hangings and key holders and I learned the importance of washing out your brushes NOW not tomorrow (no latex!). I think the idea of a Kkid Cub scout program is great ( I hope National reads these screeds). 1) insist that parents accompany Ks and 1st graders. No Baby sitters etc. I could not believe when one year we had 14 nascent Tigers one year and NOT ONE family would join. Everyone of them pleaded "too much time involved". I call this the "soccer syndrome"... drop your boy off and come back in 2 hours. We asked for one meeting and one activity a month, all pre planned and pre scheduled. Couldn't do it... 2) Don't call it Lions (what is LfL? never heard of it) Call it another animal, smaller, craftier....FOX Scouts! Leave Lion for another time. Here's your sequence... Fox...Tiger...Bobcat... Wolf...Bear... and What the hey is a ..a .. Webelos?? The sequence is only a little out of logical ordernow... Putting a LION first is not apparently logical to me. 3) Gotta make things. Hand eye. Dodads for mom to hang in the kitchen, dad to put on his desk and make big over. 4) Make awards for the PARENTS. They can earn a patch or pin for getting the boy to the meeting, helping with the paint and glue. Kkids are FOXES, mom and dad are er, whats a male fox called? Possibilities??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John-in-KC Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 To mbscoutmom... I was one of those Lions who found himself in the rollout of the Webelos program. We count, but as a program graduate, my question is not so much "Is this the right name?" as "are we stretching the envelope to bring 6 year olds into the fold?" SSSScout, in the post immediately above this, hits a sad point: Families are not willing to commit to quality time with their children. Too many want a "turnkey" operation while they go do the weeks shopping. My thoughts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScoutNut Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 SSScout says: "insist that parents accompany Ks and 1st graders. No Baby sitters etc. I could not believe when one year we had 14 nascent Tigers one year and NOT ONE family would join. Everyone of them pleaded "too much time involved"." If you could not get even 1 family to join Tigers because they did not want to attend every activity with their boy, how do you expect to convince Kindergarten parents to sign up for TWO years?? The parent (& leader) will have an even more hands on role with K's because K's do not read or write. Either mom/dad will have to do it all or we dumb the program down to cut, paste & coloring pages. Learning For Life is a subsidiary of BSA that is classroom & workplace based. Explorers are the workplace based side. Here is the site: http://www.learning-for-life.org/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGreyEagle Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 How is LFL crap? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaji Posted March 10, 2006 Share Posted March 10, 2006 OGE: I wasn't saying that LFL is crap, merely that this stuff about it being under LFL AND Cub Scouts is. If they're not going to continue in LFL afterwards, then what's the point of making it an LFL program? If it really IS an LFL program, then why is it being considered a part of a Cub Scout pack? Wasn't the whole reason we got the Venturing program because they decided that Explorers were LFL now and couldn't be considered a BSA program? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seabear Posted March 15, 2006 Share Posted March 15, 2006 Read the post on this, at this time, my thoughts are why? ... Why this program, why now, is this to boast the falling numbers of the scouting programs, for sure it will do that. Will it create more funding , I believe so. Having not seen any text on this; it is hard to say anything about the program . As for the naming of the program, well the no one at National has came up with any new names for many years now( just look at the Venturing Program ). As for Learning for Life, why was this program developed what has it done for scouting? As for girls in the program, will we be hearing from the Girl Scouts of America on that. Any one remember the Roman Empire and what led to their down fall, look like a carbon copy to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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