Age Appropriate Guidelines

[flying pig]

I am about one year into being Cubmaster and have a question about something that has been a tradition in our Pack. We have a family overnight event in our school's gym with a night full of activities. We've been able to come up with many fun activities but the one centerpiece of the event has me worried. I believe we need to discontinue it based on my understanding of age-appropriate guidelines for scouting activities. The Troop/Crew affiliated with our CO has erected scaffolding with a climbing tower and rappelling equipment. The kids have absolutely loved this in the past but I am 99% sure it is out of line with the guidelines. I have discussed this with some parents. One had indicated that a few years ago there was a Council run event where her children had been able to do some of these activities.

 

Again, I'm just looking for reassurance from the experts here that dropping this part of our event is the correct thing to do.

[fgoodwin]

FP, welcome to the Forums.

 

According to the following chart:

 

http://www.scouting.org/boyscouts/resources/18-260/chart.html

 

climbing a commercial or "horizontal" wall (whatever that is) is appropriate for all Cub Scouts. Climbing a vertical wall or tower is appropriate for Webelos.

 

I don't know where your activity fits in that description, but it does not appear to be a "commercial" tower.

 

If I were you, I'd ask your DE for clarification and I'd do it sooner rather than later. Depending on what your DE says, the troop / crew who is setting this up also need to be made aware of the age restrictions.

 

When I was CC for my son's pack a few years ago, we climbed a commercial indoor wall as a winter activity (in MD that time of year, its sometimes hard to find outdoor activities that are appropriate for Cub Scouts). It was hugely popular with all the boys, siblings and parents.

 

Good luck and let us know what you find out.

[ScoutNut]

According to the "Age-Appropriate Guidelines" all Cub ages, from Tigers thru Webelos, can do bouldering & commercial/horizontal wall climbing. Webelos are allowed to do vertical wall or tower climbing.

 

Cubs can NOT do belaying, rock climbing or rappelling.

 

Even if they could do these things, they could NOT do them on a homemade scaffolding and climbing tower with just the Troop/Crew helping. According to the "Guide to Safe Scouting" there must be qualified supervisors, who are at least 21 years old & have been trained in "Climb On Safely". You also need someone trained in First Aid & CPR, a qualified (min 10 hrs instructor training) climbing instructor the activity must be conducted using an established site or facility & all equipment (helmets, ropes, hardware) must be approved (or new) & correct for the size and ability of the participant.

 

http://www.scouting.org/pubs/gss/ageguides.pdf

 

http://www.scouting.org/pubs/gss/gss09.html#d

 

Bottom line - Don't do it.

 

BTW - Even though this is not technically "camping" it IS an overnighter & you might need a BALOO trained person in charge.

[ScoutNut]

The best place for Cubs to do wall climbing is at a commercial facility with qualified instructors. Check out your local YMCA, REI store, or fitness facility.

 

 

[flying pig]

Thanks for the quick responses.

 

I do believe the leaders from Troop have the training and one is an EMT but it obviously is not an established facility. They do have harnesses and helmets of various sizes including ones for very small boys.

 

I am BALOO trained. I actually went to a training in a different council late last spring when I realized there were no further trainings in our Council until after our scheduled campout in October and we had no one trained at the time. It was an excellent training and I am thinking of taking other leaders to the same training this year. It was put on by a very good district.

 

BTW, what exactly is bouldering?

 

We have a small WebI group and we just crossed over our WebII group so with rappelling ruled out and vertical wall limited to that small group of WebI's, it probably is not wothwhile for this event. We do have a horizontal wall but it has received very little interest in the past.

 

Thanks for all of the feedback.

[Beavah]

Yah, I'm not as skeptical as ScoutNut about this.

 

It's perfectly possible for the crew or troop to have all the necessary trained people and gear. In fact, in many cases they might be more experienced than the average off-the-street climbing wall employee. And the "established site or facility" is only a guideline; plenty of troops go out climbing on real rock in the wilderness. Besides, it seems like they have indeed established a facility.

 

Cub Scouts shouldn't do self-belayed rappels, sure, but I think a rappel belayed by others is perfectly fine (and indeed no different than being lowered off a climb). And the no vertical thing is also a guideline; not sure why it's there, it's perfectly possible to be just as safe with a cub on a vertical wall; indeed, it's safer because they're so light they pose little weight differential to the belayer. Just be alert to kids' emotions and fears.

 

Bouldering is climbing unroped within a "short" distance from the ground (using crash pads to land on and a spotter).

 

If you're at all concerned about this, have an outsider with climbing experience come in to check it out. But overall, it seems like fun, eh? And a nice connection with the troop/crew to keep the kids in scouting for da long haul.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Proud Eagle]

If I were you I would want to speak to the council climbing director. That is an individual who has been National Camp School certified as a BSA Climbing Director, and appointed by the council to oversee all climbing activities within the council.

 

That person will be able to give you correct and current safety information, any rules or regulations your council may impose on climbing, and also perhaps make a determination about this particular event.

 

I should note that as of this year (2006), all councils are REQUIRED to have a Climbing Director. If they do not that council may not conduct any climbing activities or programs, either at summer camp or year-round. (At least that is my understanding of the issue.) This is essentially the same as requirements that had previously existed for COPE.

[LongHaul]

Flying Pig,

      A Horizontal Wall is one on which the climber is never more than 2 feet off the ground and traverses the wall side to side. Belaying is when the climber is tied to a rope being monitored by another. Bouldering is basic or intermediate climbing carried out on relatively small rocks that can be traversed without great risk of bodily harm in case of fall. BSA requires that a scout must be belayed if that scout is to be four feet off the ground such as crossing a rope bridge or climbing a tower or climbing wall. Belaying is NOT age appropriate for Cub Scout Aged boys. Exceptions are commercial establishments where the facility assumes the risk for equipment and instruction . The accident insurance and liability insurance covering the pack and your CO could be void if the pack knowingly violates the GTSS age appropriate guidelines. Just because we have always done it that way does not make it right.

      If your school gym is not your regular meeting place then you should be applying for a tour permit for the activity, list the climbing activity on the application and see if the Council approves permit application. Bet they dont.

 LongHaul

[Beavah]

Gotta make a few gentle corrections, LongHaul.

 

The accident insurance and liability insurance covering the pack and your CO could be void if the pack knowingly violates the GTSS age appropriate guidelines.

 

Nah. Yeh shouldn't be sayin' stuff like this. First off, the age appropriate guidelines aren't in G2SS; they're in a relatively obscure bin item publication. They're well enough done, but they're guidelines; there's no relationship to insurance exclusions. You hurt the BSA when you make volunteers all nutty about insurance not coverin' for this, that or the other thing. It isn't trustworthy or true, and it scares good people away.

 

A Horizontal Wall is one on which the climber is never more than 2 feet off the ground and traverses the wall side to side.

 

Two feet? Nah. There's no such definition. Not above shoulder height is a good guide.

 

Bouldering is basic or intermediate climbing carried out on relatively small rocks that can be traversed without great risk of bodily harm in case of fall.

 

Basic or intermediate? Try tellin' that to someone trying to boulder a V10! Bouldering is unroped solo climbing at heights where safety can be reasonably maintained by spotters and "crash pads."

 

BSA requires that a scout must be belayed if that scout is to be four feet off the ground such as crossing a rope bridge or climbing a tower or climbing wall.

 

Where's that from? Not in my copy of Topping Out or CD notebook. Again, "not above shoulder height" is the BSA guideline.

 

Belaying is NOT age appropriate for Cub Scout Aged boys. Exceptions are commercial establishments where the facility assumes the risk for equipment and instruction

 

No exception for this rule. No reputable gym is going to let boys under age 12 (or more likely age 14) belay as a primary belayer. BSA allows any Boy Scout to belay, but a good instructor is going to back up the belay of any younger boy scout.

 

[LongHaul]

Beavah,

     I dont know where you are from or what your back ground is but I think you should A. speak with a lawyer about insurance regulations and when the insurer can refuse to pay a claim, and B. Think about what you are saying before you say it.

     Your BSA liability insurance is subject to the condition that you follow the rules, if you dont coverage can be denied. Talk to anyone who has had a serious accident on an outing and had to defend themselves in court when the law suits started.

     The Age appropriate guidelines are the center fold section of the GTSS sold by National.

     Shoulder height???? Whose shoulder? Mine? Yours? Michael Jordans? Try the scouts! Thats usually about four feet. Cub Scouts, who we are supposed to be discussing would be less.

     V10!!! We are talking Cub Scouts here guy. Are you telling me you think Cub Scouts are cleared to do V10 level climbing according to the guidelines? I was telling flying pig what bouldering meant in relation to his original post.

LongHaul