"Pre Webelo" Lion Cub Question

[VinceC]

 

I just recieved an old Cub Scout handkerchief. Appears to be brand new from the condition it is in. Under an Arrow of Light there are three emblems, a wolf badge, bear badge, and what looks like the head of a lion. All surrounded by Cubs doing various activites. Anyone have any idea how old this is? I thought I read somewhere on these boards that there were Lion Cubs before Webelo Scouts came around. I've only been in scouting since 1970 and don't remember seeing these. Thanks. VinceC.

[John-in-KC]

I was a Cub Scout from my 8th birthday to the Pack meeting before my 11th birthday... that was 1964 to fall of 1967.

 

Bobcat was a pin. Wolf, Bear and Lion were ranks. Webelos didn't mean "we'll be loyal Scouts" ... it meant Wolf, Bear, Lion, Scout. I have my last uniform shirt (Pack 194, Reseda, CA) ... and I'm darned glad I do

 

The Webelos Program, to include the Webelos Den, rolled out as I was going through to Scouting. That would be spring and summer of 1967.

 

So much of remembered history. Of course, back then BSA Supply Corporation did not sell new neckerchiefs every elevation. Ditto hats. I had my yellow neckerchief all the way from Cubs to Boy Scouts.

 

 

[scoutldr]

John is correct...we must be about the same age. The "Lion-Webelos" book can still be found routinely on ebay. Also back then, dens were not segregated by rank, until you got to Webelos ... the Webelos den patch was a yellow diamond with a blue "W" in the middle. I was in "Den 7" all the way through.

[John-in-KC]

One cool thing was Mom was my Den Mother :)

 

Dad was active as Troop Treasurer when I moved up to the Troop.

 

Best part of it all is they're both still around as my son works his Eagle project and, after 3 years of J-staffing district Cub Day Camp, he's been hired for the Ecology Lodge in Camp Piercing Arrow, H Roe Bartle Scout Reservation

 

 

[scoutldr]

Back then, "Den Mother" was the only position a female could hold. Every Wednesday afternoon we would ride our bikes over to Mrs. W's house right after school for our den meeting. This was after wearing our uniforms to school all day (every week!).

[Kaji]

hehehe...I remember when I was a Wolf, all the guys in my den and I attended the same elementary school, so den meetings were basically just held in the school library right after class ended every Tuesday. Likewise, I remember proudly wearing the uniform all day on those days, too. hehehe...

[GS-CS_leader]

In 1969, I started as a 2nd grade "Blue Bird" which was the equivalent in Camp Fire Girls to "Brownies" for Girl Scouts. (Incidentally, CFG pre-dates GSUSA by a year or two and back in the 60's and 70's at least was actually much more similar to BSA than GS, except for the name.) I seem to remember that Cub Scouts did not start until 3rd grade back then. So does that mean that Wolf and Bear Cubs used to be 3rd and 4th graders respectively? Then Lion would be 5th grade, so Boy Scouts would be for 6th grade, as it pretty much is today, except for the Webelos who get their arrow of light and enter BS in the second half of 5th grade. So did the names change age groups at some point? If so, then does that mean that their were a few cohorts that "skipped" a designation because the grades changed while they were in CS? (At least the names didn't move in the opposite direction causing boys to have to "repeat" a rank!)

 

I've gotta say that I wish the BSA had stuck to the single uniform for all of CS. Buying a different cap, neckerchief, and recently even a different neckerchief slide for every year in CS is not a huge expense, but why not make it easier for less affluent families who already have to search second hand shops for the rest of the uniform parts? (which are pretty expensive for the basic clothes that they are---I guess because they want them to be "made in USA"?)

 

I think it it interesting that BS usually had it's youngest program a year older than the youngest program in GS. Girl Scout currently has Daisy GS for kindergartners and there are even a few pre-school kids in it. It does tend to be as other people have mentioned in other forums more of a play group situation for the really young kids in these groups. There has also been a migration of earned badges moving down into the younger age groups where they didn't used to be part of the program. GSUSA used to say that badges for young kids weren't good because they were so young that they tended to fixate on the badge instead of on the meaning of what they were learning. I guess they changed their minds because now they even have "Daisy petals" for the kindergartners. I'm curious: can one of you middle-aged former CS tell me if there were the CS rank badges when you were a CS?

[Kaji]

I joined tiger cubs in 1989, so I'm hardly middle aged, but this should answer the question about badges: http://www.sageventure.com/history/cub/diamonds.htm

 

Short of it is that yes, Cub Scouts have always had badges to show their accomplishments

[GS-CS_leader]

Ah yes, I should have realized that somewhere there had to be info on the Internet about the history of the BSA.

 

Here's a website that answered most of my questions:

http://www.troop97.net/bsahist1.htm

 

But no information in the above about the "segment" patches that go around in circles on the red CS vest. Anyone know when those were introduced? It seems strange to me that there are no standards or formal requirements for these. Some packs seem to go nuts over them, giving them out for what amounts to doing little more than a 10 min activity. Last year our CM gave out three segments just for attending a single campfire program. (Can you tell that I disapprove making the patches that "cheap" to "earn"?) Any comments on how your pack uses these segment patches?

[ScoutNut]

I'm suprised your Pack didn't do something on the history of "Cubbing" last year for the 75th Anniversary.

 

As Kaji stated, yes, Cubs have had rank badges. Who, what & when they were earned has changed however.

 

1930 - Cubbing was launched with Bobcat as the first earned rank (as now). Dens were formed by age (Wolf-9, Bear-10, Lion-11, on to Boy Scouts at 12). Boys would earn each rank in succession, regardless of age, & only the most current rank badge was worn. Boy Scout Den Chiefs ran the dens.

 

1941 - Webelos rank was added as the last 6 months of the Lion level for boys who had earned their Lion rank. The Webelos rank looked like the current AOL.

 

1942 - Boys allowed to start earning rank at the age level they enter instead of starting at Wolf and going from there.

 

1945 - Cubbing changes to Cub Scouts

 

1949 - Age levels changed to Wolf-8, Bear-9, Lion/Webelos-10, Boy Scout-11.

 

1954 - Webelos, 10-1/2 yr old, get their own den.

 

1967 - Advancement program changed. Lion dropped & Webelos becomes 1 yr program.

 

1972 - Webelos rank becomes Arrow of Light badge.

 

1982 - Tigers started

 

1986 - Cub Scouts change from age based to grade based. Webelos changes to 4th & 5th grades.

 

1995 - Tigers get their own den, instead of a group.

 

2001 - Webelos get an oval Webelos badge & Tigers rank is introduced.

 

 

Hope this helps!

[ScoutNut]

Use of the segment patches is a local one. Some councils have specific requirements to earn them. Some have specific events that must be attended to earn them. Some councils have them for adults. Some councils do not use them at all.

 

My Pack uses them instead of purchasing large, expensive patches. They are basically used as participation patches. We do one for each Pack meeting attended and for Pack & den activities. The boy like getting them, they are a LOT cheaper than big patches, & they look real cool on the back of their red "brag" vests! By the time they crossover to BS they could have 5 or 6 rings around our council patch.