returning to the pack?

[MarkS]

I think it is a bad idea for experienced Scouters who no longer have a child in the pack to serve as a CC or CM or DL. In Cub Scouts, parents need to take charge of the programs in their boy's units. They have the vested interest. Where are our future adult leaders going to come from if someone is going to do the job for them?

 

It is better for the pack if these experienced Scouters serve the pack as a PT, MC, or CA. They are best suited in positions that allow them to share their experience and knowledge while the parents run the unit. Sound familiar?

[msnowman]

Lisabob - one way to combat the "we've tried that and it didn't work" thinking is "well, we have new people, lets try it again". I hate the "we've always done it that way". When I became CM there was a lot of that. I battled what was book wrong w/ book facts (the boys didn't receive Rank until June, regardless of when it was completed, etc.). As has been mentioned, training (current training, not 15, 10 or even 5 year old training) is a big help helping returning Scouters get up to date on today's program. Again, my Pack is a great example. The current CC had boys in the Original Tiger program so she saw it go from no shirts to orange shirts and paws prints before she got out. Tigers in blue was just one solid example of what she needed to learn. Fortunatly training is scheduled for next weekend (and again in April). Stale thinking can be freshened...and if its a returning Scouter who has been out for a while their ideas, though old, could be fresh again....like bellbottoms and platform shoes.

 

If our Pack used MarkS's narrow view we would have folded last year as the CC's grandson had already aged out. Without leaders w/o boys staying, our Pack would again have folded this year. Yes, in a perfect world the parents would willingly or even begrudgingly step up and conduct the program for their children. However, many of us live far from Perfect, USA and that isn't happening or going to happen. I think turning your back on a willing adult as MarkS seems to suggest just because they don't have a boy in the Pack is a narrow way to conduct business.

 

IMHO

YiS

Michelle

[MarkS]

msnowman seems to have forgotten or didn't read the original question posted in this thread...

 

"What's your take on former cub leaders returning to pack leadership after their boys have moved on to boy scouts? Good idea? Or not? What pitfalls and/or advantages are there to consider before agreeing or declining to return as a pack leader? Are there conditions that should be attached to such an invitation, or to its acceptance?"

 

See, Lisabob's question didn't take into account your situation. She didn't specify an assumption of lack of leadership as a prerequisite for answering her question. You have to remember, I was answering her question--specifically the part on the conditions she was seeking. I was not addressing your situation. If you asked me what I thought under your situation, I'd likely answer differently. Obviously, experienced leadership is better than no leadership.

 

See I don't have narrow view at all but am a little irritated that somehow I have a narrow view because apparently you didn't read or remember or other wise know what question I was answering.(This message has been edited by MarkS)

[msnowman]

Mark, you said "I think it is a bad idea for experienced Scouters who no longer have a child in the pack to serve as a CC or CM or DL.

In Cub Scouts, parents need to take charge of the programs in their boy's units. They have the vested interest. Where are our future adult leaders going to come from if someone is going to do the job for them?" To me that came across as willing to eliminate good leaders simply because they don't have boys in the Pack. Who's to say that only parents of boys in the Pack can have a vested interest in the Pack?

 

However, Mark, if I read your post with a tone that was not intended then I do whole heartedly apologize. Since we are stuck with words on a screen, sometimes things get taken poorly because there are no visual or verbal clues.

 

For the record I did read the original question and the whole thread. Actually I was one of the first responders on this thread, so yes, I did know what question you were answering. I've been following this thread with great interest.

 

YiS

Michelle

[MarkS]

Michelle,

 

I understand. It can be hard getting thoughts from our minds through the keyboard accurately. Each post is a one-way message with no feedback until after it's in print.

 

I didn't mean to say that we should eliminate good leaders simply because they don't have boys in the Pack. What I meant to say is that these folks would better serve the Pack in support roles such as Pack Trainer and Assistent Cubmaster or Assistent Den Leader. It will make the Pack more viable over the long-haul if parents take a vested interest in leading the program with experienced leaders at their disposal to show them how to do it. Of course, I understand if you don't have both parent leaders and experienced leadership from boys who have aged out and still want to help, for example, you take what you can get.

 

It seemed to me that the overall opinion of the thread was that if you could get an experienced leader to be a Cubmaster for a unit, there's no problem with that. However, there is a problem with that. It can create a vacuum of available leadership for the unit over the long haul because it fails to get new parent leaders involved.

 

It's best to put your experienced scouters in supporting roles and use them as a recruiting tool. Recruit new leaders by telling them, "Bob's son just joined the Boy Scouts so he doesn't want to be Cubmaster anymore, but if you take the job, he'll stay on as your assistent and make it easy for you to do it. What do you say?" Or "Bob's son just joined the Boy Scouts so he doesn't want to be Committee Chair anymore, but if you take the job, he'll stay on as a Committee Member and make it easy for you to do it. What do you say?" Make sure you have a one-on-one conversation with the recruit and discuss the details of the job making sure you describe the roles and responsibilities as closed and finite (no open ended job description).

 

Now you have two leaders instead of one. This is a much more effective way of using experienced leaders to bolster your pack leadership than or putting them in charge. Can you always do it this way? No, but it should be a goal.

 

All I am doing is applying the Boy Scout Troop leadership organization paradigm to the Adult Leaders of a Pack (i.e., Scoutmaster Advises/Boys Lead translates nicely to Experienced Scouter Advises/Parents Lead).

 

ScoutNut emphasized the need for training. This concept puts the trainers in your unit.(This message has been edited by MarkS)

[ScoutNut]

As I also said, BSA states in their brochures on selecting unit leaders (both the Cub & Boy Scout versions) that your selection committee should look at ALL QUALIFIED individuals from unit parents, the Charter Organization & the community.

 

Nowhere, in any BSA publication, does it state that unit leaders should ONLY be unit parents.

 

 

[MarkS]

Absolutely ScoutNut... but Cub Scouting is also supposed to be a family program. According to my Cub Scout Leader Book, "Family involvement is vital to Cub Scouting's success." If you want to maximize this aspect of the program, you need parent leaders.

 

Let's face it. Being an adult leader is not rocket science. You can teach almost any parent to be an adult leader and there's not a whole heck of a lot that makes them UNQUALIFIED.

 

I think that Cub Scout units will do best for themselves if they select their leaders from the families of their boy members first and then look outside their unit to fill any remaining positions they can't fill.

[jens3sons]

I think if one looks at whether or not there is a son involved in the pack as a requirement for being a leader in the pack, there is a great potential for lost leadership! How many troops have Eagle scouts, who do not have children yet, who serve as leaders?! Think of what these troops would lose out on if the boys did not stay involved!

 

Although I had heard (through training) of men and women taking leadership roles who have no children (or some relative that they were leader for ie. grandson or nephew) I never met anyone who wanted to be a leader without children until Friday night at our Blue and Gold. We had two corporals for the U.S. Army do our color guard that night. After the flags were posted, we had dinner. During dinner the one corporal was telling me of his Cub Scouting experience, and how he wished he had stuck with it. I almost fell over when he asked me if he had to have children to get involved...."Absolutely Not!" was the first part of my answer...the second was, "I have just the person for you to talk to!" (My District Chairman was in attendance that night!) I had the two of them talk with each other, and the last I heard my District Chairman was going to be mailing him off a leader application!

 

I do understand some of the concerns, especially when it comes to "stale leadership" but I think possibly a running lists of the good vs. the bad and the longer list wins type thing might work here! Good luck!

 

jens3sons

[ScoutNut]

My son is considering signing up with the Pack when he ages out of his Troop next February.

 

Should I tell him to forget it until he has sons of his own? I don't think so!

 

 

[MaScout]

Ok, here's my take on it, for what that's worth. My youngest son bridged to Boy Scouts 2 nights ago. I had a son in Cub Scouts continually for 15 years. I served in most positions during my tenure. Looking ahead, I started taking more of a back seat in many things. I had been diligent about writing down everything...guidelines for Blue & Gold, how to run a PWD, etc. Last year, when the Committee was working on B&G, I sat there and didn't say much. Several times, I was asked if I wanted to do something, since I knew how it was "supposed" to be done. I smiled and said I was there to give advice or suggestions, but they needed to learn how to do this without me. I did lend the voice of experience, but with the caveat that it didn't have to be the same way forever. I usually put together an awesome Powerpoint presentation for FOS. Two years ago, someone else wanted to try. Last year, they asked me to do it again. This year, they asked the DE to do the FOS presentation. He didn't want to "step on my toes". I smiled and said that they need to find their own way now.

 

I traditionally spent WAY more than "one hour a week" to make the program run smoothly. But I gradually weaned them away from that reliance on me by finding others to do things. AND by LETTING GO! I cannot control all things, nor should I. They are doing fine. Maybe not exactly like I would, but they are doing fine.

 

>Do I know how it has been done in the past? Yes

>Do I know what worked & what didn't IN THE PAST? Yes

>Do I think things need to stay static? No

>Just because it didn't work in the past, does that mean it won't work now? No

>Do I think I should assume a major role if there are parents willing and able? No

>Would I be willing to help if needed? YES

 

I am staying on the roster in a supporting role. It may be as Training dude (forgot the title), Tiger Cub Coach, even as a Den Coach. BUT... always making sure the leader knows that I am A resource, not neccesarily the final, all-knowing answer.

 

You need to look at the individual leader. Are they going to try to "take over" and make it "their" Pack? Then, NO, you don't have a need for their skills right now, but thank you for offering, and you'll keep them in mind.

 

I wouldn't turn away a good leader out of hand. I would utilize them in a supporting role if possible, and in a major role if needed, as a mentor and a teacher if they have the personality.

 

Good luck!

[Lynda J]

What better way to recycle leaders. My Kevin has been with the troop 3 years. At the beginning of this year I started helping one of the Web Leaders.

She had taken over the Web 2's and they were really behind. I love working directly with the boys.

 

So if you were a leader and your son moved up into the troop but you really like being more hands on that what is needed in the troop. Go back and give your skills and knowledge back to the Pack.

 

My mother graduated her last troop of Girl Scouts from high school just after she turned 70. She had had a troop since before I was old enough to be in. It all has to do with what my Gran use to say.

 

"Your community is like a tree. You are either a leaf that feeds and nurtures is our you are mistletoe that sucks it dry. Be dang sure you are always a leaf".

 

Its all about having fun and giving back.

[Newbie Den Leader]

It would be a blessing to my Pack to have experienced leaders return to help out. Packs are often led by the parents and often they are inexperienced and need guidance. Experienced scout leaders that want to give back to a Pack for no other reason than for the love of Scouting should be welcomed.

 

Of course, you will need to understand what his/her motivation is for wanting to serve. If they are basically "pure" motives with an attitude to serve the Scouts and the parents, then take him. Leaders like these can provide great training for the Pack.

[FScouter]

"Of course, you will need to understand what his/her motivation is for wanting to serve."

 

What kinds of motivations should disqualify an adult leader candidate?

[MaScout]

Issues of control.

 

Issues of manipulation.

 

Yes, these and more DO occur in Cub Scouts. It galls me all the adult politics that go into Boy Scouts... We had a family whose children were out of Cub Scouts and they moved 200 miles away. They still came back for committee meetings and to stir up trouble... They were off the roster, but had friends in the unit, and stirred up a passle of bad feelings & animosity.

[ScoutNut]

And how do you discover these issues of control or manipulation? Do you have a questionnaire? Do you straight out ask them? Do you ask for references?

 

These are people who have already been APPROVED by your COR & CC to be leaders. They simply want to stay with (or return to) the Pack instead of working at the Troop level.

 

MaScout, folks who would drive 200 miles each month to attend a committee meeting for a scout unit they are no longer connected with are not manipulative or control freaks, they are crazy & scary & they would not be allowed to stay at our committee meetings.