Girls in" Boy Scouts" Scouts

[theysawyoucomin']

Kudo wrote:

 

 

I was referring to problems that a coed program would fix.

 

OK, in a nutshell:

 

1) One "problem" that a coed program would fix is that American girls are short-changed because the GSUSA has few if any outdoor advancement requirements that are, you know, required.

 

(CAPS ARE ONLY TO SHOW A STATEMENT AND ANSWER FORMAT) HOW CAN THE BOY SCOUT PROGRAM FIX THIS? YOU HAVE A VERY TRUE STATEMENT IN #2 THAT SHOULD HAVE BEEN FIXED YESTERDAY.

MY SENIOR IN HS DAUGHTER, GOLD AWARD CANDIDATE, GS SINCE KINDERGARTEN, TOOK IT UPON HERSELF, OF COURSE WITH PARENTS PAYING THE BILL TO CANOE THE ALLAGASH IN MAINE. MANY GS LEADERS, AND BS LEADERS DON'T WANT TO VENTURE OUT OF TOWN. ALOT OF GS LEADERS DON'T WANT ANYTHING TO DO WITH POOPING OUTSIDE. COMPARE THAT TO 50% OF FAMILIES HAVING OUTDOOR "PLUMBING" IN AMERICAN PRIOR TO WWII.

 

BOTH PROGRAMS MUST SEEK THE OUTDOOR TYPE EVEN IF THEY HAVE TO HAVE THE "PRESS GANGS" OF OLD GO TO THE EMS STORE AND GET LIKELY CANDIDATES.

 

2) Likewise boys are short-changed because a BSA Scout may progress all the way to Eagle without ever having walked into the woods with a pack on his back.

 

THIS IS A VERY GOOD REASON TO MAKE MANDATORY NIGHTS AFIELD FOR RANK ADVANCEMENT. I KNOW A COUPLE OF KIDS WHO HAVE OR WILL "CAMPOREE IT" ALL THE WAY TO EAGLE. I WOULD SAY LIFE TO EAGLE SHOULD REQUIRE A 50 MILE CANOE OR BACKPACK. NO HORSE FOR THAT REQUIREMENT. THE CAMPOREE CREDIT SHOULD STOP AT FIRST CLASS. BEYOND FIRST CLASS WHAT DOES A CAMPOREE REALLY HOLD FOR THE RUGGED, SELF RELIANT RODUCT WE WANT TO TURN OUT? OF COURSE HANDICAPPED KIDS MILEAGE WOULD VARY. THE CAR CAMPING, COOK OFF, KIDS SCREAMING WELL PAST TAPS CAMPOREE SHOULD BE A THING OF THE PAST.

NOTHING BUILD COHESION FASTER THAN SHARED HARDSHIP

 

 

3) A Scouting program is best measured by its advancement requirements, not by what Scouts are allowed to do as an option when they happen to stumble upon a Troop with an inspired outdoor leader.

 

HERE, HERE. WE NEED TO CHANGE THE REQUIREMENTS AND LIKEWISE THE LEADER TRAINING.

 

4) To solve these problems, a minority might consider the option of joining a Scouting program that:

 

a) Uses Baden-Powell's Advancement program, based on more rigorous outdoor Advancement requirements than are currently practiced in the United States.

 

DOES ANYBODY KNOW HOW WE LEFT THEM IN THE FIRST PLACE?

 

b) Has identical requirements for both boys and girls.

 

c) (My own preference is to have) male and female Troops within a Group that function independently enough from each other that adult supervision does not interfere with a truly adult-free Patrol System.

 

d) Most importantly, does not involve convincing Americans such as yourself that there is a problem with their association that a coed program would fix.

 

In other words, the problem with Scouting in the United States is not the program, the problem is the monopoly.

 

I DON'T UNDERSTAND THIS KUDO CAN YOU EXPAND?

 

 

 

 

uZ2BNOWL WONDERS?

 

Why do we have so many responses to these topics, yet sometimes when people ask "how to's" they get very few responses?

 

Why is it the job of either organization to help or fix the others problems?

 

 

 

 

 

 

[scoutldr]

Thanks for the input, GS_CS. My point in asking the question about BB guns was to confirm my suspicion, that in general, GSUSA is no more restrictive in "age-apppropriate" activities than BSA. The limiting factor seems to be the risk tolerance of the leaders and/or local Councils.

[Kudu]

I wrote:

 

4) To solve these problems, a minority should consider the option of establishing an alternative Scouting program that:

 

a) Uses Baden-Powell's Advancement program, based on more rigorous outdoor Advancement requirements than are currently practiced in the United States.

 

uz2bnowl writes:

 

DOES ANYBODY KNOW HOW WE LEFT THEM IN THE FIRST PLACE?

 

The BSA Tenderfoot through First Class outdoor requirements were pretty close to Baden-Powell's in the early days. It is interesting to note that we somehow lost the BSA "First Class Journey" sometime after William Hillcourt's arrival! (Hillcourt is usually credited for bringing the Patrol Method to the BSA in the late 1920s).

 

The biggest change happened in 1972 when the BSA was "modernized" away from Scouting as a game of Scoutcraft and transformed into a leadership training organization. Years later, Hillcourt was brought back to restore some of the outdoor elements, but (with the exception to the Uniform Method) he was not allowed to reverse the changes made to the "Methods of Scouting" including the new "Leadership Development Method."

 

b) Has identical requirements for both boys and girls.

 

c) (My own preference is to have) male and female Troops within a Group that function independently enough from each other that adult supervision does not interfere with a truly adult-free Patrol System.

 

d) Most importantly, does not involve convincing Americans such as yourself that there is a problem with their association that a coed program would fix.

 

In other words, the problem with Scouting in the United States is not the program, the problem is the monopoly.

 

uz2bnowl writes:

 

I DON'T UNDERSTAND THIS KUDO CAN YOU EXPAND?

 

People who object to the membership requirements of the BSA, and have an understanding of Scouting and access to adults with the appropriate outdoor skills, should consider establishing their own Scouting unit rather than wasting time on trying to change the BSA.

 

I would recommend using Baden-Powell's program which was used with great success for more than 50 years throughout the British Empire and is copyright-free.

 

Kudu

 

 

[theysawyoucomin']

Thank you for your quick response Kudu.

 

 

If carried out properly and the boy leader left alone to lead, I can imagine no better leadership developement course for a boy in the age group we serve.

 

I have displayed the small unit leadership methods the Marine Corps uses, businessman Harvey McKay has called it a mini MBA (or words to that effect) most all those can be applied to leading a patrol.

 

I can name several people that make more than $500000/year that should have been Patrol leaders in their youth. They would have a lot more on the ball right now as adults.

 

I wish the GS program had Patrol Leaders. The gold award has some mangement in it and I see my daughter gain leadership skills and good old grit and determination. But nothing like a boy led Troop would have.

 

Kudu wrote:

 

People who object to the membership requirements of the BSA, and have an understanding of Scouting and access to adults with the appropriate outdoor skills, should consider establishing their own Scouting unit rather than wasting time on trying to change the BSA.

 

 

Kudu I think some folks rather like tearing down an organization that has done so much good for so long.

 

Some folks like beating America into the ground.

 

It gets them alot closer to the non judgemental anarchy that they really want.

 

The government pays the legal bills of the ACLU so they can fight for a costume cowboy wearing butt-less chaps to ride a float down Broadway, yet it takes a court battle to allow public school children to be allowed to write "Merry Christmas on a card for deployed Troops.

 

The culture war is raging.

 

They are winning.

 

[Diver66]

This is an interesting topic to say the least. There are some valide points to both sides, but National has already made the leap with Soccer & Scouting. I had a meeting with my Regional executive a couple of weeks ago and he told me about this program. This program was designed to get the Latino community more involved with Scouting. Thru the meeting I was informed that this program is opened to both girls and boys. The girls go through Learning For Life, but the girls will be BSA registard. This was just a prlimary meeting and training to follow. He told me that is well received in pilot areas. Here is the link to the site:

http://www.soccerandscouting.org/

 

[ScoutNut]

There is nothing on the Soccer & Scouting site to even suggest that it would include girls. As a matter of fact the recruitment flyers specifically state - "All boys ages 7 to 10 who want to learn to play soccer and at the same time be Cub Scouts are eligible to join."

 

[Diver66]

Scoutnut I appreciate your input, but i would have to disagree with you. By what you say then girls are not considered youth, just boys. I went back and read over again and the only reference to boys is when it is dealing with Cub Scouts. Here is the flyer.

 

The Boy Scouts of America has developed its Soccer and Scouting program as an outreach for Hispanic American/Latino YOUTH and their families, but it is not limited to them. All boys ages 7 to 10 who want to learn to play soccer AND at the same time be Cub Scouts are eligible to join. The program has been endorsed by Major League Soccer and is proving to be

a great resource for local councils. (MLS Camps, the top U.S. youth soccer program, worked with the BSA to design the program.)

 

As I said in my first post, This is what was told to me by the SR executive. I would tend to believe him because all over the site it refers to youth not boys. There are to many lawyers in Scouting to make a mistake of saying "youth" instead of "boys" if it was only open to boys, is this making sense? I have to go with what I am told and what I intepert from what information I read. As I said before my council is going with boys and girls. Boys to go through Cub Scout ranks, Girls go through Learing for Life. My DE told me the girls would be registered with BSA.

 

Again I have not had formal training on this, but will have soon.

 

 

 

[ScoutNut]

This should be interesting to see how your council works this out.

 

If the girls are registering thru Learning for Life, and doing the Learning for Life program are there going to be new materials just for them? The only program materials on the site were for Cub Scouts.

 

BTW, although LFL is a subsideary of BSA, the two programs are NOT the same and registration in LFL is NOT the same as registration in BSA.

[Diver66]

Scounut you are correct, this will be interesing to say the least. I agree that LFL is not BSA registration. I am relaying what my DE has told me, not that he is the end all of information. I will have to see how this plays out.

 

We will be talking about training tonight at a District meeting on this subject. I will let forum know more as I find out.

 

I have a feeling that it will be a very heated discussion, as we have about a 50/50 mixture of old and new in our district council. Again should prove to be interesting.

 

[infoscouter]

>I wish the GS program had Patrol Leaders. The gold award has some mangement >in it and I see my daughter gain leadership skills and good old grit and >determination. But nothing like a boy led Troop would have.

 

I wondered when reading this whether the Girl Scouts had eliminated patrols from the program, (I was a patrol leader in my Cadette Girl Scout troop in the late 60's), so I went and looked.

 

The GSUSA web site still has references to patrols, patrol leaders and the patrol system. If your daughter's troop is not using the patrol system, it may be due to the fact that the troop is too small to manage this way. What we call a PLC, the GSUSA calls a Court of Honor. (What we call a Court of Honor is called a Court of Awards in Girl Scouting.) As a Cadette, we had monthly Court of Honor meetings, just like a PLC does. Our Cadette troop had been formed out of the remnants of several Junior troops, and so had the critical mass to have three patrols.

 

In my smaller Junior troop, we did what many GSUSA troops do now, a sort of collective decision making, led by a single patrol leader. GSUSA calls this the "town meeting" style of management. From what I'm seeing there are three options for troop government - patrol system, town meeting or Executive board.Troops still can have Scribes and some other leadership positions for girls, even if there are not multiple patrols. Your daughters troop may be following one of these other models.

[ScoutNut]

The type of government a GS Troop uses is (or should be) decided by the girls.

 

My girls used the "Town Meeting" type most often. We never really had enough girls to split into decent patrols. They tried other approaches, but always came back to the "Town Meeting" as the one that worked best for them.

 

 

[infoscouter]

My GS experience was so long ago, and my leader experience was so ill-prepared, that I couldn't remember all the details. Events from when I was 9 or 10 are getting a little fuzzy! (for that matter 40 isn't too distinct any more)

 

But I was glad to see the GSUSA hasn't dropped the patrol system entirely. I got a lot out of being a patrol leader. What I don't remember is who ran the Court of Honor - is there an equivalent to an SPL?