Girls in" Boy Scouts" Scouts

[woody01]

Here is the way I see it when a girl is 14 She can join

the vent. program. What is the harm in having then in a

cub program.Then if the boys do not want to go camping with

"girls" when they get older, they can stay in boy scouts

[ozemu]

Heck Barry are girls different over here!

 

Although I am a registered secondary history / english teacher I have been following outdoor education as a career. Scouts is not like school. Scouts and outdoor ed use experential learning. It suits boys. And what better way for them to learn about girls than to have real ones along. They can experience living with the other 50% of the population and mistakes are expected. No pressure to learn and no exams to pass either. Maybe they will understand women more when they marry one and the divorce rate might drop.

 

I am being quite tongue in cheek here.

 

Change is hard to accept - it is unknown. But the possibilities are not always bad just because their shape is not yet certain.

[MaScout]

So...Do any of you men ever like to have a night out with the guys? Do you want "the girls" along? Why not? Any correlation...?

[Eagledad]

>>They can experience living with the other 50% of the population and mistakes are expected. No pressure to learn and no exams to pass either. Maybe they will understand women more when they marry one and the divorce rate might drop.

[ozemu]

True Barry true.

 

Youth led over here is pretty mixed. We have fewer formal procedures than does BSA as I understand it and therefor youth led is probably not achieved by the majority of Aussie troops. Also a major problem that BSA has not got is that our 15 year olds are alll removeed from the Troop. Venturers are not as easily reachable as they are mostly area Units and the drop out rate is enormous. We also loose our best young leaders just as they start to work it out is the Troop.

 

MaScout - My answer is 'No'. Guys nights are not something I have ever considered. But then again I am a workaholic introvert I am told. And I have a large and complicated family that takes up most of my time.

[Homeschoolmama]

I've read all the posts regarding girls in Boy Scouts. I only have boys, three in fact. Yet, I think girls should be in the Cub/Boy Scouts program. I also think that boys should be allowed in the Girl Scouts program. Each program offers a unique curriculum for our youth to follow. I believe that people, including our youth, should be allowed to explore their interests. I see no reason why girls can't shoot BB guns, shoot arrows, explore the outdoors, etc. I also see no reason why boys can't learn to cook, sew, practice purity, etc.

 

The Boy Scouts USA Govt. code 36 U.S.C. Sub Section 30902 reads:

The purposes of the corporation are to promote, through organization, and cooperation with other agencies, the ability of boys to do things for themselves and others, to train them in scoutcraft, and to teach them patriotism, courage, self-reliance, and kindred virtues, using the methods that were in common use by boy scouts on June 15, 1916.

 

The Girl Scouts USA Govt code 36 U.S.C. Cub Section 80302 reads:

The purposes of the corporation are (1) to promote the qualities of truth, loyalty, helpfulness, friendliness, courtesy, purity, kindness, obedience, cheerfulness, thriftiness, and kindred virtues among girls, as a preparation for their responsibilities in the home and for service to the community;

 

My thoughts are, and Im sure some of you might agree, that perhaps we should modernize both corporations. If they modernized maybe neither gender would want to join the opposite.

 

Or perhaps we could simply combine the two corporations and require parts of both curriculums be included, this would ensure that all of our youth learned to sew, cook, hike, shoot (arrows, BBs, etc.), be patriotic and courageous, be friendly and courteous, be pure and kind, be loyal and helpful, be cheerful and thrifty and most importantly be well rounded, mentally and emotionally healthy individuals.

 

My dream, my hope, is not to take anything away from the Boy Scouts or the Girl Scouts but, to create a program from which both genders will benefit more fully.

 

Thank you for your consideration and your patience.

 

[scoutldr]

Welcome to the forums, homeschool. Just out of curiosity, do the GS have a rule against shooting BB guns?

 

I have never been a GS leader, but I married a girl scout. From what I've read, males are actively discouraged from being primary GS leaders, and the female leaders are less likely to want to do the "manly" things that girls seem to want to do. When it comes to heat, cold, dirt, sweat, snakes, bugs, and other discomforts, the GS leaders opt out. GS camps are being remodeled to include air conditioned cabins, computers and "activity centers", to keep their attendance up. Meanwhile, the girls are joining Venturing. Is there a message there?

 

Now before I get flamed by the ladies out there, I realize I am speaking in generalities and there are admirable exceptions out there. But on average...

[GS-CS_leader]

" From what I've read, males are actively discouraged from being primary GS leaders"

 

National GSUSA literature explicitly provides for male leaders, however some individuals impose their own predjudices. There is the example of a male GS leader in my community (Eagle Scout who luckily has daughters because as an openly gay man, he would be banned from BSA memberhsip). He has been warmly embraced by the parents of his scouts and other GS leaders in the community. He was so enthusiastic and volunteered for everything that no one else wanted to do in our Service Unit. The council SHOULD have loved him too since he was active in recruiting new troops and even created a successful huge "Studio 2B" troop for teens consisting mostly of girls who had never been GS before. (Note that his daughters were younger than this, so it was true outreach). As a former BS, he was good at institutiing a youth-led focus, something that many long-time GS leaders have a hard time with since they often started as leaders back when the girls were very young and are not used to allowing the girls to do their own planning.

 

However, there were particular council staff members who did not like him merely because he was male. They harrassed and attacked him. They tried to kick him off the planning committee for the council leaders' retreat. The parents of his troop started to look into whether they could leave GSUSA and form a group under a different organization or even create their own non-profit. He was such an excellent leader that many of the parents had seen great improvements in their daughters self-esteem, willingness to take reponsibility, etc. At this time, I believe that the assistant leader of the troop of younger girls is listed as the official leader of that troop, and he may have even handed off the official title of leader for the teen group. He has withdrawn from activities above the troop level after the council pushed him out of the community registrar position. I don't know much because I also withdrew from activities above the troop level after some nasty council staff attacked me too.

 

Anyway, the important thing is that the National organization does support the idea of male leaders, so the anti-male bias is coming from individuals. Unfortunately, sometimes those individuals may have official positions so it may sound like they are expressing GSUSA policies, but they are not.

 

" and the female leaders are less likely to want to do the "manly" things that girls seem to want to do. When it comes to heat, cold, dirt, sweat, snakes, bugs, and other discomforts, the GS leaders opt out. GS camps are being remodeled to include air conditioned cabins, computers and "activity centers", to keep their attendance up."

 

I am in the situation of not being able to implement the dream that I had as a child of one day leading a group of girls to do tough wilderness trips. I was a "Camp Fire Girl" and at least we did site camping, made our own coffee can camping stoves, etc. although we did not go backpacking or do quite same activities that the BS did. On the other hand, the GS troops in my area only did domestic activities like sewing and crafts (not that I didn't like those activities too), and went on lots of field trips. However, the only "rustic" camping that I have been able to talk the assistant leader and the girls of my troop into (except for my own daughter) was to sleep in a Teepee at a council camp. Last year, I went along with staying in a hotel and just spending the day hiking and doing outdoor cooking. This year we stayed at a "cabin" which was really a full house with fake log siding.

 

I think you have to take into account that middle-aged women like me were mostly brought up to dislike the idea of "roughing it". When I was at a public elementary school in the late 60's and early 70's in a progressive Calif area, girls were still required to wear dresses. (We wore shorts under them so that we could swing on the monkey bars without showing our underwear!) So perhaps more of these women leaders are reluctant to do that kind of thing because that is how they were socialized. However, it has been very disheartening for me to find that at least at my daughter's school, there is still only a relatively small percentage of girls who want to do these kind of tough outdoor activities.

 

The GS summer camp that I found for my daughter which has real wilderness trips has tended to have a hard time even getting the minimum number of girls to run those trips. Last year, my daughter's first choice trip was cancelled due to lack of enrollment, but they let her go on a trip that was supposed to be for slightly older girls since she would give that trip the needed 4th camper. I found that wilderness programs for girls younger than 16 are extremely rare. It was only by chance that I found a GS camp from a council only a few hours from where we live. I had considered flying my daughter across the country if that is what it took to give her the experience that I had longed for at her age.

 

So I think that to insist that girls get their outdoor experiences from GS troops means that most of them will be denied that opportunity. I believe that typically there are not enough girls interested in activities like backpacking to form their own all-girl troop to do that, although I've read about a some backpacking troops. The camp I mentioned above got girls from many other councils (like my daughter), and they still struggled even to get 4 girls per trip for their wilderness trips. I think there were only a couple trips for each type of activity (backpacking, bicycle touring, canoeing, kayaking) that were able to be run.

[epalmer84]

Homeschoolmama:

 

It is my understanding that the BSA made overtures to both the Girl Scouts and the Camp Fire Girls in the 70s or 80s and was rebuffed. (The Camp Fire Girls were started by some of the folks involved in the formation of the BSA and were heavily promoted by the BSA; James West considered Campfire Girls to be the sister program of the BSA.)

 

Frankly, given the philosophical and political gulf between the BSA and the Girl Scouts, I do not see any merge in the future.

 

scoutldr:

 

I was invited to a Gold Award ceremony recently and talked to some of the leaders afterwards. They mentioned that some of the local camps were being sold because they were too primitive (no flushies).

 

Ed

 

 

[ScoutNut]

Welcome Homeschoolmama !

 

"I think girls should be in the Cub/Boy Scouts program. I also think that boys should be allowed in the Girl Scouts program."

 

I can not see the point of both programs going completely co-ed while still staying separate. If ever, & I can't see it happening in the near future, they both decided to go co-ed, joining into one program would make the most sense.

 

 

"Each program offers a unique curriculum for our youth to follow."

 

This is because each program was created to be a unique, gender specific youth program. BSA was created specifically for boys, while GSUSA was created specifically for girls.

 

 

"My thoughts are, and Im sure some of you might agree, that perhaps we should modernize both corporations. If they modernized maybe neither gender would want to join the opposite."

 

While I have heard of girls who want to join BSA, I can not think of any instances where a boy has wanted to join GSUSA. BSA is continually updating it's programs. Currently, GSUSA is in the process of completely re-vamping it's entire program structure.

 

The purposes of BSA & GSUSA that you quoted are both a bit dated. The one for GSUSA more so. Today you will not see any references to "purity" & "obedience".

 

Currently -

 

BSA Mission Statement

 

The mission of the Boy Scouts of America is to prepare young people to make ethical and moral choices over their lifetimes by instilling in them the values of the Scout Oath and Law.

 

Girl Scout Mission

 

Girl Scouting builds girls of courage, confidence, and character, who make the world a better place.

 

Basically both programs aim to be the best character & leadership development program for their targeted youth.

 

[Jeffrey H]

"The purposes of BSA & GSUSA that you quoted are both a bit dated. The one for GSUSA more so. Today you will not see any references to "purity" & "obedience"."

 

Yes, the "purposes" are dated by those that are easily influenced by popular culture.

 

In my district of the BSA, some GSUSA leaders tend to look upon the BSA with a little envy. One GS leader commented to me about some of the qualities of the BSA that she wished were a part of the GSUSA:

 

--the timeless uniform

--the oath and law

--traditions

--Eagle Rank

 

In short, she appreciated the traditions and values that the BSA does not waver on. She tires of the constant changes in the GSUSA.

[Homeschoolmama]

Wow, given how old this string is, I certainly didnt expect to have so many responses so quickly. Well, what this tells me is that people are still at least thinking about it.

 

Hi Scoutldr, thank you for your response. While I personally have not found anything that dictates Girl Scouts are prohibited from using BB guns, I have been told by many people in our school that they were told they couldnt. They were also told they could not participate in archery as well as several other items. The leader that told me that had a variety of outdoor interests as well as indoor and was trying to get her girls more involved in both. Due to the restrictions placed on her by the GS Council she felt that she could not continue as leader. Since that time, she has gathered several girls that were inclined to the same interests as her and her daughter and they have basically formed a rogue group that has a curriculum derived from both the Girl Scouts and the Cub Scouts. The girls, the leader and the parents of those girls are very happy with the results and the group they have formed.

 

Hi GS-CS_leader, thank you for your response. I too am a middle aged woman and also a former Camp Fire Girl. My mother started our group when I was in first grade and the core of our group stuck together all the way through our senior year in high school. Through those years we had 17 girls at most and ten at the very least. My mother stuck it out (without any assistance) and raised two boys at the same time. As Girl Scouts we were taught and participated in cabin camping, tent camping and open-air camping. At no time were we ever allowed to bring suitcases, propane stoves, or other such modern conveniences. We brought matches that were wax-coated (for water proofing), a mesh bag (that we made ourselves) with our dishes, a cast iron crock pot and skillet. We dug a pit for our fire, put rocks around the top to hold the pans and cooked on an open flame. He hiked, we learned to use a compass, we built trails for future troops, we dug pits for potty needs, we took zero showers and we had a great time. Back at home, we learned to work on cars (basic needs only tire and oil changes), we participated in wood working activities and we earned enough money from a summer long bake sale to pay for all 14 of us plus chaperones to go to Matamoras, Mexico. It was an amazing experience and one I wish all those interested youth would be allowed to participate. Those childhood experiences have helped me to be a better parent and a better person.

 

Hi epalmer84, thank you for your response. Im afraid Ive found slightly different information regarding the forming of the Scout program. Once Baden-Powell founded the Scouts in 1907, it spread over most of the world. Baden-Powell founded a parallel program called Girl Guides (to later be called Girl Scouts in the US) in 1910. The Girl Guide movement was run by his sister Agnes Baden-Powell until her death in 1945. Olave Baden-Powell assisted in running the Girl Guides and became Chief Guide in 1918 and World Chief in 1930. Campfire Girls was found in 1910 also and by Luther Gulick and his wife, Charlotte Vetter Gulick, of whom also aided in founding the Boy Scouts. I dont imagine that any of the three will ever be combined. My comment on combining was more of a flippant comment rather than a suggestion.

 

Hi ScoutNut, thank you for your response. Honestly, I dont see them combining. I also agree that it would be prudent for them to combine if they were to combine curriculums and go co-ed. Im not so dense as to not understand why each program was created to be a unique, gender specific youth program. I believe however, that gender specific programs, for the most part, are archaic.

 

As far you girls who want to join BSA or a boy has wanted to join GSUSA. I personally experienced and believe that society has been more accepting of girls participating in less traditionally female roles (or more masculine) than they have been accepting in boy participating in less traditionally male roles (or female). I consider this to be a sad reflection on the times.

 

The purposes of BSA and GSUSA that I quoted ARE both a bit dated. I couldnt agree more however, it was an accurate quote and one that people fighting law-suites against BSA to allow girls to join use very frequently. In using it however, they conveniently leave off the end where it is stated, using the methods that were in common use by boy scouts on June 15, 1916. I have a feeling (and strongly hope) that if most people realized a good many of the rules or standards BSA follows are based on behavior from 1916, they might have a different opinion of allowing girls to participate. The Mission Statements may have changed over the years but the archaic beliefs are often still practiced.

 

While both group programs are aimed to develop good character and leadership they are also both teaching our children to discriminate against genders as well as other groups.

 

I think that both programs have wonderful benefits for our children. I also think that both have practices that could be detrimental. We, however, participate heavily in our childrens lives. We are there to see, hear, correct what they might be exposed too in those group activities. What they dont provide, we provide at home. My boys know how and participate in: cooking (or at least they are learning), sorting and putting away laundry, cleaning and upkeep of our home, care of others and our family pets and certainly not least care and cleanliness of themselves. My boys are six and eight years old. They are great!

 

Everyone thinks its cute and expected when girls play with dolls, it helps them to be better mommies. My boys all played with dolls at an early age. Many people criticized my husband and me over this. To which we replied we are proud that our boys roll-play with dolls, perhaps it will help to make them better dads when they grow up, I certainly hope it does.

 

I will state this again because I want to make sure you all (some more than others) actually understand what it is that I am saying and what I originally said: My dream, my hope, is not to take anything away from the Boy Scouts or the Girl Scouts but, to create a program from which both genders will benefit more fully.

 

Thank you all. I will continue to research this topic after all, knowledge is power.

[epalmer84]

Luther Gulick was on the BSA Committee of Organization in the fall of 1910, with Seton, Robinson and Livingston and others. Gulick was also the president of the Playground Association of America. He recommended his secretary, James E West to be the managing secretary of the BSA. West took the job for six months that turned into 32 years and retitled his position to Chief Scout Executive.

 

In 1911, West helped Gulick when the Camp Fire Girls were formed, and Camp Fire was promoted in BSA publications. West never liked the Girl Scouts and always considered Camp Fire Girls to be the sister program of the BSA.

 

Ed

 

Ed

[GS-CS_leader]

"While I personally have not found anything that dictates Girl Scouts are prohibited from using BB guns, I have been told by many people in our school that they were told they couldnt. They were also told they could not participate in archery as well as several other items."

 

From the GSUSA "Safety-Wise" book (c. 2000):

BB guns: I think BB guns would be considered to be "firearms". For activities involving firearms, written authorization is required by their Girl Scout council, and GS councils may not authorize these activities for GS under age 12

 

Archery: "Archery is not recommended for Daisy or Brownie Girl Scouts.

A participant in archery activities must be old enough to understand safety procedures and handle equipment so as not to endanger herself, other participants, or onlookers." There are also a long list of requirements such as needing a certified adult or one with documented experience. Note that the age groups referred to are kindergarten through second or maybe third grade. Also the activity is not specifically prohibited for the younger girls unlike some other activities.

 

But lest people get the idea that the BSA does not have restrictions on these activities for Cub Scouts, here is a quote from the BSA brochure "Cub Scout outdoor Program Guidelines for 2005": "Archery and BB gun shooting are restricted to day camps, Cub Scout/Webelos Scout resident camps, council-managed family camping programs, or council activities where there are properly trained supervisors and all standards for BSA shooting sports are enforced. Archery and BB gun shooting are not to be done at the pack level." So these activities are pretty tightly controlled for Cub Scouts too.

 

Homeschoolmama, most of the restrictions on activities imposed by GSUSA are for safety. I hope that the "rogue" troop you mention is not ignoring safety rules just because the GSUSA safety rules are very strict. Because of liability issues, scout leaders should observe a higher standard of safety when they are responsible for someone else's children. Having an adult with documented training for activities with some risk helps to ensure that preventable accidents do not happen and may help in the defense of a leader if there should be an injury with a resulting lawsuit.

 

As for borrowing curricula, I have done it both ways: I used ideas from a Cub Scout "Program helps" book back when my GS were Brownies, and more recently, for my Webelos den, I've re-used many activities (and leftover materials ) that I used for Brownies. I don't just use borrowed activities randomly, but choose those that fit with the theme of the month for pack meetings or with the Webelos badge that they are working on. This is perfectly legitimate: neither GSUSA nor BSA requires that all activities must come straight out of the program materials, and some of the activities are actually identical in the two programs---not too surprising given that they are programs for the same age group and most topics like science or music or even outdoor activities are not gender-specific.

 

More information about "Camp Fire Girls": the organization is now co-ed and is called "Camp Fire USA". "Camp Fire" began to admit boys in 1975 and today 46% of the youth members are boys. Concerning ties to BSA, from the Wikipedia: "In 1969, Camp Fire Girls were allowed to be "Participants" in BSA's Explorer Posts (for boys 14 and older). This ended in 1971, when the BSA made Explorers a co-ed program." It looks like "Camp Fire USA" is less camping-oriented than it was when I was a CFG in the early 70's. CFUSA serves 750,000 youth and is thus a much smaller organization than either GSUSA (2.7 million girls) or BSA (2.9 million youth)

[Homeschoolmama]

Thank you for your response and sharing of information. I've said it before and I'm sure this won't be the last, "Knowledge is power." I am a life-long student and enjoy learning and educating myself and my children.

 

As far as the safety guidelines in the "rogue" group, they are doing a great job. One of the parents is a police officer and is in charge of the "firearms". Thanks for your concern.