Girls in" Boy Scouts" Scouts

[Eamonn]

Hi EagerLeader,

Boy do I really come off sounding like an old stick in the mud? (No please don't answer that!!)

I admit that Girls scare the beejeebers out of me!! But I have seen that it works really well in the units in the UK where they have gone coed.

I have watched the boys and girls in our Sea Scout Ship and they just don't seem to notice that they are boys and girls - Well most of the time.

I don't know hardly anything about Girl Scouting in the USA. To be very honest I never had or felt the need to find out.

The Girl Guides back home seemed to have a good program and if anything did a far better job of being part of the community than the Scouts did.

I'm learning more and more with each passing day about how to deal with girls and to again to be honest it isn't much different than dealing with boys. If anything it's a lot easier because Girl Scouting doesn't seem to be big in our area and the girls seem a lot more enthusiastic than the boys. But that might be just our area.

When I look at our vision and mission along with our methods I fail to see why they can't work for a mixed group.

I do know that there are differences with boys and girls.

There was a truly wonderful program on PBS the other week about raising boys titled:Raising Cain.

http://www.pbs.org/opb/raisingcain/

I thought it was great. So much so that I send off for the DVD.

It seemed that PBS was all about Boys that week as they also aired Country Boys: A Film By David Sutherland which was very good (and is costing me another $35.00)

 

I feel sure that there would be a lot of objections to a full coed Scouting program, but I do feel that we could make it work if we wanted too.

I remember being at a meeting when Venturing was first explained and some of the Scouters nearly choked on their Wood Badge beads. The problem as I see it isn't with the kids it's with the adults.

Still as I belong to the BSA and I'm happy to belong to the BSA, I'm more than happy to play this game by the rules that they (we?) lay down. And as I said if and when they change I'll be a very happy little camper.

Eamonn.

 

 

[funscout]

I hope BOY scouts can remain just that, scouting for BOYS. I am really impressed at how my 12 year old son is maturing by being around the older boys in his troop. With girls along, the older boys wouldn't have much time for the younger boy scouts.

 

If sisters of boy scouts think the boys are having more fun, then they need to talk to their girl scout leaders about doing some of the same things. A friend of mine leads her daughter's girl scout troop and they do just as much "fun" stuff as her son does in boy scouts.

[EagerLeader]

No Eamonn, I hope I didn't offend you! I don't think you come across as being an "old stick-in-the-mud". I would say you come across as being "old school" Scouts, and being an old-school traditionalist isn't a bad thing! I have formed a mental profile of some posters in this forum, you being one of them, and I had you pegged as an "old way or no way" Scouter. I was off-base there wasn't I?

 

Sometimes people can surprise you :-)

 

EL

[Eamonn]

EagerLeader

Please don't think you have in any way offended me.

The thought never crossed my mind.

There are a lot of things that I don't see eye to eye with in the BSA. My list is a long one and of course I think that I'm right and "They" are wrong.

I live in hope that one day everyone in the entire world including Her Who Must Be Obeyed wakes up to the fact that I'm right and they are wrong.

Until that day I will take my shoes off and not walk on the carpet in my shoes, even though the dog has twice as many feet as I do and he doesn't wipe his paws.

I will continue to file endless reports that never ever see the light of day again and attend meetings where the only good thing that comes out of them is the donuts.

I know that I could say no and my boss might say go.

And I will continue to obey the rules laid down by the BSA. Maybe one day the BSA will do something that upsets me enough to quit and when that sad day comes I will move on and do something else.

Eamonn.

[ozemu]

I have found that the boys who don't have time for the younger boys when their are girls around are not interested in helping others anyway.

 

Just to consider the other side of the coin. And this is very much how I find it works for us...

 

the younger Scouts get to see older boys and girls (men and women) playing and working together without trying to be boyfirend / girlfriend. What a great peer role modelling opportunity.

 

Scouts coed is NOT like school coed. Scouts is not compulsory. Scouts does not attract teens who want to offend social rules (at least not like some you see at school). Scouts tends to have family oriented people - we involve lots of people. Lots of non-scouts are not family oriented and are exclusive. They do not mix if possible.

 

Girls in Scouts is different. But we are talking about the same type of people as you currently have in Scouts.

 

Watching young people of all ages and both genders mixing without being all gooey has convinced me that coed is good.

 

And other coed organisations do not have the 24/7 experience of viewing peers working with stress etc. Only Scouts does that and it prepares people for adult life working with both men and women.

[woody01]

Ozemu you hit the nail on the head. good point

[NapowanRed]

I don't think a coed BSA would work out very well...

 

At the ages of 13-18 most guys only have one thing in mind when it comes to women. Let's be honest...

[ScoutNut]

NapowanRed, have you never heard of the Venturing Division?

 

BSA - Co-ed - 14 to 21 year olds.

 

Actually, BSA Venturing works out very well! The "one thing on their minds" does not seem to be a very big issue after all.

 

 

(This message has been edited by ScoutNut)

[ozemu]

I am being honest.

 

Tried and tested even.

 

In fact I have found that having girls present brings some reality to the machismo. Being dressed down by a young woman for being a foul mouthed abusive and chauvanist adolescent tends to smarten up the rare twit who forgets what respect means.

 

Let me quote a 13 year old PL, "When you describe a girls (anatomy area) as (size) it isn't funny. It hurts. We don't like boys who say that".

 

...and the Patrol decided on some in-house rules over breakfast the next day.

[Fishsqueezer]

I think I would have to weigh in with leaving the Boy Scouts as boys only. While I think it is great that they have interactions - maybe cooperative activities with local Girl Scout troops - the drawbacks are too great. If you have kept up with current research in emotional and educational development of kids you would note that boys and girls do not develop the same in either area. Educational research has shown that single sex classrooms in school improve learning and social interaction significantly for both sexes over coed classes. The learning and interaction of boys is simply too different. When girls are involved they tend to be much more attentive to the instructor, follow instructions better, and cooperate more. While not intentional, this leads to teachers (and probably scout leaders) preferring girls as the "model" citizen and, in effect, labels the boys as "defective girls."

 

If girls were involved, their style of learning and leadership would essentially take over the troop and end up disenfranchising the boys. I'm sure somebody has the information about registration of boys in troops. I don't have specific information, but I suspect that the average size of troops in areas where they have gone coed is about the same before and after. But since girls are now involved that means the program is now reaching fewer boys. Instead of having 2+2=4 (GSA+BSA=lots of kids) we now have 2+2=2. BP was right when he talked about boys gathering as natural packs.

[resqman]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10965522/site/newsweek/

 

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10965127/site/newsweek/

 

Here are two articles in newsweek that indicate that boys need to be treated like boys and not girls. Bringing Female leaders into the mix brings the female view of how boys should act and behave. Females may be technically competent in all the merit badge skills and know the book backwards and forwards but they are still women.

 

Boys are being treated like bad girls, when they are really acting like good boys. Boys spend much of their time in a predominatly female run organization called school. They are lead by women 8 hours a day 5 days a week. What they need is a chance to be treated like boys by men at least occasionally.

 

Females in the program changes the program. Some see the change as good. I am not convinced.

[funscout]

My 12 year old son is shy at school and in church youth group, both of which are co-ed. He is not shy in Boy Scouts, where he doesn't need to worry what the girls think of him, because there are no girls! As a child, I wouldn't have wanted boys in my girl scout troop. I, too, was shy at church and school, but felt very comfortable in a girls-only organization.

 

I don't think it's harmful to have some female leaders, but I certainly wouldn't want my son's troop to only have female leaders. Are there any like that out there? I agree that the boys need good adult male role models. But, I think they benefit from having female leaders around, too. If any of us female leaders start acting like "Moms" instead of Boy Scout leaders, the male leaders are quick to let us know about it!

[Lisabob]

Setting aside the question of whether there *ought* to be female leaders in the BSA for a moment...From a purely pragmatic view I submit that a good number of units would fold if there weren't women involved because women frequently make up a majority of the adult leaders - especially in cub scouts.

 

Going back to women's involvement: personally I think it makes sense to have dedicated adults, regardless of gender, involved in the program in as many ways as possible. I don't buy the argument that women will coddle the boys more than men (I've seen as many dads do this as moms). I also don't buy that women will treat boys as "bad girls" while men will not. There may be people out there who do treat boys that way but I submit that it has less to do with their gender and more to do with their lack of training or experience with boys. Now most moms I know who are involved in scouts HAVE SONS so they know at least a little about raising boys.

 

I'm sure some will disagree but I'd say it is healthy for boys to be around caring, competent adults, period.

 

Lisa'bob

[Fishsqueezer]

You have no argument from me Lisabob. Women do make just as good of leader as men. And mothers with sons do understand boys more than mothers with daughters. I also think fathers with daughters would make very good girl scout leaders and understand girls better. My argument is against girls as members of cub scouts or regular boy scout troops. Intentional or not, people do treat and view boys and girls differently and they interact differently. When they are in the same group biases will show and I believe they will show to the detriment of the boys.

[jediwannabe]

Just to let you know, there are very few Scout Associations that aren't co-ed with BSA being one of them (See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_World_Organization_of_the_Scout_Movement_members for a list)