An either-or troop choice for my son?

[Oakville Tim]

My son is a Webelos 2 and looking very much forward to Scouting. I am the DL as well as our Pack's CM. Our Den is small, just five boys, and my gut feeling is that my son is the only one who will continue as a Boy Scout. The other Web2s and their families all have received the same information about Troop opportunities; thus, with a clear conscience I am most devoted to my son's finding a good Troop experience. That's what leads me here tonight, seeking your opinions.

 

My son could join our 'Feeder Troop,' although because of school district boundaries he never will attend the same middle school as the other members... he does know some of the sixth-graders, cordially but not much more than that. This Troop has probably 22 boys. Our Den did camp with the Troop in November, to meet our AOL requirements, and had a so-so time; not much interaction between the Scouts and the Web2s, and if attending Web2s ought to feel like they're 'being recruited -- we WANT you to join us' -- my boys said they didn't have that feeling.

 

Option 2 for my son is a small Troop -- only 10 boys as I post this -- whose members attend the same middle school my son will attend. Probably five current Web2s from the 'Feeder Pack' are moving up, and my son knows a few of them, being teammates in sports. The SM and ASM with this Troop are beloved but definitely grizzled veterans; the dads of the Web2s are enthusiastic Scouters who will have lots of giddy-up-and-go when they get a turn as SM and ASM.

 

My son, being 10-plus, tells me he had a 'great' time with each Troop and his body language showed he enjoyed a Troop meeting with each as well.

 

Based on how you found a Troop for your son, does one or the other Troop sound like a better fit for my son?

 

Thanks,

YIS

Oakville Tim

 

[Lisabob]

Last year my son joined a troop where he didn't know most of the boys and the majority of them don't go to his school. In fact, I think he's the only 6th grader from his school. The patrol structure made it easy for him to make friends in this troop. So I wouldn't necessarily focus on that question unless this is a really big issue from your son's perspective.

 

Other questions I'd ask:

 

1. Do they have functional patrols? What do they do with the new scouts? Is there a "new scout patrol" and what happens with this patrol once the boys have acclimated to troop life?

 

2. What kind of first year program, if any, do they have to get the new scouts up to speed? This is a big weakness of my son's current troop and something another troop in town does a much better job with. My son's troop has pretty high drop out rates during the first year in comparison to the other troop, and I think this is part of the reason.

 

3. How well do the adult leaders communicate with new parents? Boy led or not, parents still need to be in the loop to understand how the program works and what their role in it ought to be (or not be - as you know there's a big difference from Cubs here).

 

4. What are regular the troop meetings like? Are they fun? Are they worthwhile? And who is running them? Is this something the boys are basically in charge of? Or is one or more of the SM/ASMs running things? If the boys are running things, it might seem a little more chaotic (hopefully not all out anarchy though), but this is one sign that the boys are probably involved as real leaders of the troop.

 

5. What kinds of camping, service projects, patrol activities, etc. does the troop typically do? Are these things that your son would enjoy participating in? Do they camp too often or not enough for your son's tastes? Are the service projects things you and your son feel you can support? This has been a major topic of discussion here lately. How are these events chosen? (by the boys? the adults? annually? as the opportunities come along? - ie will your son have any say in the schedule going forward?)

 

6. What's the age structure of the troop? Are there a lot of older boys but hardly any younger ones, or vice versa? The troop my son joined is top heavy and they have a great program for the older scouts but tend to be weak in terms of the younger scouts - a problem for us. Another troop in town has the opposite problem and leaders from that group have mentioned that it is hard to expect the younger boys to learn from the older boys because there just aren't many older boys in the troop.

 

7. How do the adults and boys seem to interact? You mention the "beloved but grizzled" SM and ASM in the smaller troop. Are they really beloved? Or just such institutions that they ARE the troop and that's that? For that matter, how do they feel about these new gung-ho parents? Do you get the sense that new involvement is viewed as a threat, or an opportunity?

 

This is just based on my son's and my experiences since he crossed over last February so I'm still a bit new myself - I'm sure others will offer more sage advice.

 

You might want to read the thread on first year retention too. There were several responses in that thread that highlight things I'd look for (and encourage my son to look for) if we had it to do over again.

 

Good luck and I hope your son has a great experience where ever he goes.

 

Lisa'bob

A good old bobwhite too!

[Oakville Tim]

Thanks, LisaBob, for all the great feedback! Also I wasn't aware of the thread on first-year retention.

 

I certainly won't bore you with responses to the questions you posed, but all that you wrote will kick me into action in finding out.

 

Thanks again!

 

[MarkS]

Based on the scenarios you described, I'd go with Option 2 unless something negative comes out following questions. None of his current Webelos friends are going to join the troop your pack feeds so it will stay around 22 boys. However, if your boy and all the boys of the other feeder pack join the other troop, it will have 16 boys with five of those boys potentially being in his classes in middle school over the next three years.

 

Other things to consider... which troop has the best leaders, are those leaders trained, how many took Wood Badge (shows dedication to the program if nothing else), how long will those leaders be involed in the troop (when will their boys likely age out), what is the prospective future for the units (how many 1st year Webelos and Bears in their feeder packs), what do you think of the SPL/ASPL/TGs of each unit (they'll be training your boy initially). Plus what Lisa'bob said... (she's a Bobwhite instead of an Owl, but I won't hold that against her) except number 6. You answered number 6 in your scemarops. It looks like the smaller troop will have scouts the same age as your boy, while the larger troop will not--initally anyway.(This message has been edited by MarkS)

[scoutldr]

Why not ask your son what he wants and then do that? I am more concerned as to why the other 4 are choosing not to cross over.(This message has been edited by scoutldr)

[ScoutNut]

We can't tell you which Troop will be a better fit for your son. Only you & your son can do that.

 

I would do at least 1 or 2 more Troop visit with each Troop. Make them unannounced visits. Just show up with your son & let them know that you are there to observe. You will get a better chance to see how a regular Troop meeting is run. It should also serve to help you get answers to the questions Lisabob posed.

 

When the time comes to make the final decision, sit down & discuss all of the pros & cons of each Troop with your son. While you can make a recommendation, the decision should be your son's. He is the one who will be in the program for the next 7.5 years!

[Oakville Tim]

Scoutldr,

 

To respond to you, I should amend my 'gut feeling count' on how many of my Web2s will continue into a Troop. I believe three of my Den's five, my own son included, will continue.

 

One boy has a single Mom who believes fervently in Scouting. The boy has ADD-type issues and is rough around the edges socially but has a big heart. A second boy has always played lots of sports, but his Dad really wants him to stick it out for at least one year in a Troop and see what the program offers.

 

The two remaining boys -- both have parents who have long been extremely non-committal RE their sons contining into a Troop. Lots of, 'Oh, yeah, right, thanks for letting me know' kind of language whenever I've called with Troop information and outreach. Call me a failure for this, but I am at the point where I'm not going to beg any Web2's parents to have their son continue into a Troop. They either see the value in Scouting or they don't. They either want to take a little initiative to keep their son in, or they don't.

 

 

[MarkS]

scoutldr and ScoutNut are right, the first decision is what your son wants. My thinking was what would I recommend if he couldn't make up his mind. Both the recommendation and the decision making process to arrive at that decision need to be explained so he understand it though. He should believe it's the right decision too.

 

The fact that he's not the only boy from his den crossing over makes a big difference.

[Hunt]

I agree that the prime factor is which troop your son likes best, but if he's on the fence, here are some considerations for you:

 

Which troop meets closer to where you live? Which one will make it easier to get boys together for patrol meetings? Which one will make carpooling easier? Which troop will make it easier to coordinate with school events to avoid conflicts? Which troop is likely to have a larger percentage of active parents (i.e., will you have to go to every event yourself?) Does one troop have more gear than the other (i.e., will you have to buy a tent?) Which set of leaders do you personally like better (you could be spending a lot of time with them over the next few years)? If the grizzled SM retires, will YOU have to be/get to be the new SM?

[John-in-KC]

I second all the great advice you've received.

 

I will say this: You owe no loyalty to any "feeder" Troop. Your loyalty should be to your son. Join the Troop which he, and you, believe will best meet his needs over the next several years.

 

THAT SAID: THE FEEDER TROOP owes loyalty to its Pack. Den Chiefs should be sent down. An ASM should be co-chartered as one of your ACMs, to take your program needs back to the Troop. The Troop should be offering support to your Pack without it having to be asked for.

 

If all this is happening, great, then I'll get off my soapbox. If not, take that as an indicator of quality of management and support in the feeder Troop.

 

John

A Good Old Owl Too

[Oakville Tim]

John-in-KC,

 

You raise some further good points. I appreciate your feedback!

 

I will say that the SM in the feeder Troop, on the job for a year or so now, was cordial and responsive when I sought a Den Chief for the only one of our Dens that really needed one. He readily forwarded the Troop's calendar and web site information for me to review.

 

A big part of what prompted this thread was: Should Web2 Dens FEEL like they're being recruited? As in, 'We know Web2s have a lot of options out there for a Troop, and we want to make sure you choose US.' Because that has never happened.

 

I'm not trying to be a prima donna about this, either -- no need to roll out the red carpet certainly for me. Maybe my ADLs and I were just naive about parliamentary procedure.

 

 

[Lisabob]

I agree that the troops ought to make some effort. They shouldn't go so far as to mis-represent what the troop is really like. But they should actively seek you out by inviting webelos to events (on a timely basis), providing relevant information about the troop without repeated requests or prompting, and making you feel welcome when you are with them.

 

If the troop can't make a reasonable effort to welcome and include potential new members, what kind of effort are they going to make to integrate those boys once they join? This is purely anecdotal experience here, but what I have noticed over the last year is that the troop in our town that did the least recruiting also seems to have the highest first year drop out rate and the weakest first year program, in comparison to the other troops in the area.

 

Lisa'bob

A good old bobwhite too!

 

[SemperParatus]

Should Web2 Dens FEEL like they're being recruited?

 

That is an interesting question. I've always been of the opinion that recruitment is an ongoing process built up over years of interaction between the scouts in our troop and the cubs in our affiliated pack. In other words, cubs are heavily 'recruited' over time not in a flashy, hard-sell manner in the few meetings and campouts just prior to crossover, but rather in the years of orchestrated joint endeavors that enable the young boys to see, talk to, and do scouting with the fine young men of our troop. We get the overwhelming majority of our scouts from our feeder pack. We do have dens from other packs visit us on several occasions. Our scouts are always respectful to them and make them feel welcome, but they do not know them like they know the many boys in the affiliate pack. When I speak with the adults of these dens, I do not do a hard-sell recruitment. I explain our troop culture, boy scout methods and our typical calendar, and answer any questions. I am quick to point out that there are many fine troops in our area and they would not go wrong in choosing any one of them. Maybe part of this approach is that we have enough new scouts crossing over each year that I don't need to focus efforts on reeling in every 'troop shopper'. As long as the boy stays in scouting somewhere, I am happy for him.

 

 

[eagle97_78]

Here is where I come in. In my District I deal with Webelos to Scout crossover. this is an important part of a boy's time in Cub Scouts, your son needs to find a troop that will fit his personality, where he will just blend in. I know that maybe hard, but if these two troops just still don't feel right to him, then you must visit more that one or two troops. I have had packs visit up to 5 troops and the fifth troop was the one that they went with. You need to ask your son what do you want in a troop so that you know what he is looking for. You as a parent need to ask questions of the adult leadership to see what kind of answers you get and if you like the troop. You also need to like the troop if you are planning on helping out as an adult leader. Keep up the faith and Happy Scouting.

[anarchist]

I am a big fan of going with the boys gut feeling...if he has one...its his Scouting career and he needs to feel good about it.

 

Being fairly active in our troops on going Webelos "recruiting" program I agree with Semper...cubs should be recruited over time.

While we have a traditional feeder Pack, (@100% of the boys crossing over join our troop) it is a small rural pack with a very weak program...(yes, we are working on it...)

 

Several years ago we began working with two other packs with quite a bit of success. We start with seeding a few Den Chiefs into these packs. Then in the fall we do a pack visitation and set up a demonstration/activity of some sort, (this year it was a couple of "klondike" sleds and we let the different dens "race them to a "station" and "set up" a tarp -lines and tarp only -no poles... we then "rewarded" them with gold coins (chocolate candy).

Later in the year we set a demostration camp at the webelos wood-smoke so they (rising bears and Webelos Is)can see us and visit a bit. We follow this by hosting a camp later in the webelos II "year" and invite the Web II dens to camp or at least visit for the day...During this campout the Boy Scouts run four or five stations (rotating the Webelos through) teaching scouting skills (fire-building, first aid, map & compass, cooking, team building "games/drills", camp set-up-tents and tarps etc.) Webelos dens who stay over act as their own patrols but the troop provides a group lunch for all. Parents during this "day program" are allowed to migrate around the stations, get fed and supplied with camp coffee, tea or cocoa.

They are also introduced to troop adult leaders the patrol method, troop policies, our equipment trailer and good fellowship...

 

Throughout the year we "communicate" with the packs as to our schedule and events to avoid conflicts and to allow them to plan visits to our regular meetings.

 

The first two years we did this were very successful for our troop, but hurt two other troops in our area tremendously (and IMHO had at least some negative impact on our own program) ...so we sorta "toned" it down a few decibels...

 

Now we sell "Boy Scouting" more than "Our troop" to Webelos families- on the belief that three strong troops are more important ( and healthy) than a super troop and two struggling programs...We actively encourage families to visit multiple troops, multiple times and follow their hearts...(gutz?) We still get plenty of boys (too many?) but hopefully not to the detriment of the other programs.

 

If a dad (or mom) asks me what he should do when he wants to come our way but "Jr." wants to go elsewhere...the answer is easy...follow "Jr.s" lead...if it doesn't work...give us a call.

hope it helps!

Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to all...

Anarchist