Loin cubs

[ScoutNut]

"Put thosr K's with some 5th graders and see what happens."

 

Oh Boy Molscouter! How right you are! Most Girl Scout Troops are SINGLE GRADE Troops. Those that are multiple grade are usually only 3 years, 4 at the most, and are still a single level (Brownie, Junior, Whatever). For a Service Unit (like a District) to put together an activity that will attract multiple levels is VERY hard. A 5th, or even 4th, grade Junior GS is not interested in the same things as a K Daisy & does not really want to socialize with them.

[SR540Beaver]

Scoutnut: "BTW - Girls & boys ARE different. While they both have the attention span of a gnat at 5-6 years old, girls can be more easily induced to sit still for longer than 2 seconds & to actually work on a craft. Boys would much rather run in circles & jump on other boys. Actually this behavior extends into first grade too!"

 

My experience is that there are a good number of jr and sr high boys that act the same way.

 

[woody01]

Come on people these kids are in the same meeting what 1 time a month

for a pack meeting, With a room full of leaders and parents.

Other than that they are going to be with a group there own age.

Like tigers at lease in our area they will go to day camp.

Not res. camp.

Like tigers the boys will attend W/an adult partner.

So how could you call this baby sitting.

What is differance between going to a pack meeting or event W/ 5th graders and riding the same bus with them everday. (With 1 Adult present the bus driver)

Like I said earlier Some times I wish the older boys were as well

behaved as the tigers are in our pack.

[molscouter]

A few points and a caveat, I am no fan of the Tiger program, so the thought of a program for boys even younger is even more unfathomable:

 

1. In my 7 years involved with Cub Scouts, Tigers have almost always been the best behaved group. It's all brand new to them, there's an awe factor. Like it or not, "been there, done that" does set in. I have seen it every year for 7 years through 3 Cubmasters each with their own style. I have written this before, but watch the awards ceremony. When Tigers get their totems, they are grinning from ear to ear (Hey Mom, look what I got). Wolfs are a little less enthusiastic, but still pretty proud. Bears are a lot more jaded (rank badge, arrow points, did that last year). It picks up a bit as Webelos with the activity pins, but that soon fades as well and by the time they get to second year, they'd rather just sit down as fast as they can, even for Arrow of light.

 

2. The bus driver isn't trying to entertain these kids for an 1-1 1/2 hours. The cubmaster is.

 

3. A lot of kids burn out on these activities precisely because they are starting too early. Six years of Cub Scouts is going to lose you far more boys than you gain. These are boys who will never become Boy Scouts. (The 10th aim of Cub Scouting is to prepare boys for Boy Scouts) Why do youth soccer and baseball teams have tons of kids at age 4-5 and then steadily lose numbers every year after that? Yes, some kids find out they don't like it, but I submit that burnout is a huge factor, and that includes the parents as well.

[ScoutNut]

The boys behavior is not the problem. Creating a 1-2 HOUR Pack meeting or 2-5 DAYS of Day Camp program that interests & engages ALL boys from age 4 (the end of their pre-k year) to 11 is the problem. The 4th & 5th graders already complain when things are to "babyish". Although, if they are not a part of the Pack, & not allowed at Pack meetings or activities, that might not be a problem at the Pack level. However, then you have the problem of them not feeling connected to the Cub Scout Pack at all (what happened to the early Tigers).

 

As for Den meetings, you are proposing 2 years of mandatory adult attendance? For many families they have a hard time with just 1 year and can't wait until their boy is a Wolf & they can just drop & run.

 

IMO, K age boys are just to young to get much out of a 1X a month Play Date (ok, not babysitting). Even if they attend with a parent, the parent will end up doing most of the work for them. Their attention span is SIGNIFICANTLY less than that of a 1st grader. One year makes a LOT of difference at that age.

 

I think that BSA should stick with the Learning For Life organization's, school based, Seeker program for kindergarten kids.

 

BTW - I never did like the early Tiger program. I feel the current structured program is MUCH better. And, as a GSUSA Leader, I am not a real big fan of their Pre-K or Daisy program either.

 

[SWScouter]

One thing to consider is that currently, LDS chartered Packs do not have Tiger cubs in their program. Perhaps, if there is a kindergarten aged program the LDS church may reevaluate having the Tiger Cubs in their program. That may be another reason why BSA has been integrating Tiger Cubs more into the Cub Scout program. Of course, this is just pure speculation on my part.

 

SWScouter

[MarkS]

A K-grade "Lion" program will simply mean more attrition and reduce the overall number of boys participating in Cub Scouts. We have enough trouble getting parents to recognize that Cub Scouting ia a family program and getting them to participate as an "adult partner" in the Tiger program. Sometimes I think we'd have more Wolf, Bear, and Webelos boys if we didn't have a Tiger program. It certainly seems we have a vastly larger percentage of boys who start as Tigers drop out of the program vs. boys who start as Wolf, Bear, or Webelos. The Adult Partnet concept simply doesn't seem to work for us. You can't make parents volunteer.

[Torveaux]

MarkS,

 

I think you have it backwards. We lose a good many Cub Scouts before they ever can join Scouting. Modern parents, right or wrong, get their kids into activities and earlier and earlier ages. If Scouting does not have some program to get them in the door early, they will never even try.

 

Sure, the attrition rate may be higher, but the net total boys that are exposed to Scouting can be much higher. That mean more kids total in the program as Webelos at the end of the day.

 

Now, if the program tries to be too intense or too rapidly get the boys camping and such, it could be counter-productive. But, a well-run, introductory program would be outstanding for overall recruitment.

 

Face it, by age 5 or 6 most boys have participated in at least one extra-curricular activity (usually sports). The boys at this age can 'shop' for something that suits him and his family. If Scouting is closed to him during the shopping hours, he may use his available time to committ to soccer or Tae Kwon Do, or some YMCA activities.

 

Sure, some parents are not interested in participating with their sons. Better that they learn that at age 5. You are not losing any additional people because they would either never join in the first place or they would wait until Wolves.

 

Any good Marketing research proves that it is much easier to retain that to recruit. The ability to penetrate the market early is vital. Families are building relationships with organizations and the other families involved in them. The longer a family is involved in a program, the less willing they are to sever that relationship. The time available is limited and as such must be treated as a commodity.

 

For example: Our feeder school has about 12-17 boys per grade. We generally get 8 or so as Tigers and then we lose 3-4 until about Bears. Most dens sit at about 5 kids. So what happened to the 7 or so boys who never even tried? I think by having a starter program for Kindergarten, we would see 10-15 boys in the initial program. Even if we lose 50% we still have 5-7 boys (up from 4-5) by the time they reach Bears. It may not seem like much to get 1 or 2 more boys per den, but that represents 20-25% increase in membership. Ultimately, it is the quality of the unit that will determine the retention rate. You cannot retain boys that have never had a chance.

 

You avoid the problem with having a Pack program for them by only having them attend the 'special' Pack meetings. Den meetings are shorter to deal with shorter attention spans.

[cscashman]

Who says kindergarten attention spans are too short for scouting?

 

Around here kindergarten is either a full day of school or a half day. Kindergarten teachers do this 5 days per week and are not "babysitting" or having "play dates". Parents are able to find activities for their kindergarten children every evening and on weekends. Surely the parents (who would be the den leader or "coach") would be able to figure out how to actively involve their kindergarten aged child in scouting for 30 - 60 minutes for a couple of times each month.

 

Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't see any of the Purposes of Cub Scouting that a kindergartener is incapable of achieving (at their own level).

 

As for pack meetings, I seem to remember school assemblies that incorporated K-6. If teachers, principals, etc can do it, surely the *parents* of the children can handle it.

[ScoutNut]

Scouting is not, & should not, be like school. Scouting does not have the boys sit in rows of desks with the Den Leader in front. Scouting does not give out detentions if the boys are noisy & not sitting still in their chairs.

 

Many youth have been lost to Scouts because they felt their Den/Troop was to much like school.

 

 

[cscashman]

I am not suggesting that scouting should be run like school.

 

I *am* suggesting that kindergardeners are capable of more than adults like to give them credit for.

 

I *am* suggesting that if a teacher can keep 19 kindergardeners actively engaged for a whole day, five days each week, then surely a den leader (parents) can give 8-10 kindergardeners a quality scouting program for 30-60 minutes a couple of times each month.

[ScoutNut]

I never said kindergarteners were not capable little guys. Kindergarten teachers usually DON'T keep a room full of kids actively engaged for a full day. There are other activities & people involved &, best of all, boys know that if they act up they end up in with the Principle. Some boys don't even let that threat stop them. There is a WHOLE different interaction going on in Scouting.

 

I'm sure a Den Leader could keep 8 boys "actively engaged" for 30-60 min. I'm sure a family could throw a party & keep 16 boys "actively engaged" for 1-2 hours. That is not the point.

 

The Tiger program is pretty basic as it is. In order for Scouting to mean anything to K's, it would have to be brought down to an even more basic, non-reader level. I really can't see the point of that. Other than increasing the bottom line numbers that is.

 

If it comes to it, I am sure we will adapt. However, IMO, I do NOT like the idea & heartily hope it does not come to it.

 

 

 

[Kaji]

First off, while the lion was being phased out about the time my dad would have come of age for it, there rae still plenty of dads/granddads who remember the lion as being one of the highest honors in Cub Scouts when they were growing up, even if they didn't participate in the program themselves. How are people going to respond to what was one of the highest honors being reduced to the lowest? It's like putting the sergeant below the private, by my view.

 

Second, are they going to give the new lions a badge? Where are they going to put it? They can't keep shuffling the diamond around every couple of years here, one of the motivating factors I remember from when I was a tiger back in 1990 was seeing the Webelos with their full diamond on their chest (one of the reasons I'm slightly opposed to the new oval Webelos patches, although I can definitely understand why they did it).

 

Although I'm an assistant cubmaster, I commonly lend a hand with our first year Webelos when the den leader has to attend to other civic duties, and I have a hard time keeping a group of four to six fourth graders in line from time to time. Doing it with a group of 10 4-5-year-olds, even with their parents there, is absolutely unfathomable.

 

I love stuff from the good old days as much as the next old-timer out there (even if I'm only halfway to becoming one myself), but if what they want to do is reintegrate Lions back into Cub Scouting then they should work it back in to the same place they had it in 1966, and basically rename the Webelos den back to Lion (perhaps make the first year of Webelos back into Lions and leave the second year when they're working on their arrow as Webelos. Tiger, Wolf, Bear, Lion, Webelos.)

 

(ack, sorry for reviving a dead-ish thread! Sometimes a bit hard to tell the new from the old without keeping a close eye on the date column)(This message has been edited by Kaji)

[SR540Beaver]

Kaji,

 

Welcome to the forum! Eventually everything old is new again.....like this thread and Lions. I'm not sure why they would select Lions as a new rank when it has already been used in the past. Obviously, they have to have an animal that has "cubs". Surely there are more than Tigers, Wolves, Bears and Lions.

[SR540Beaver]

A quick Google shows that the following animals have cubs. Jaguar, Panther, Shark and Fox. The Fox cub can also be called a pup. The Tiger cub can also be called a whelp. My favorite name for a 5 year old Cub rank would be Panda.