More questions about trips but WeBeLoS

[ScoutMomAng]

Our current Cub Master has made mention that next years WeBeLoS will not attend day camp but rather a trip to New Mexico for a camp out in a National Park. We are in Florida, can a WeBeLoS den do that?

 

At that time I will no longer be the WeBeLoS leader and the current Cub Master will be both the Cub Master and WeBeLoS leader.

[kenk]

both the Cub Scout Leader Book and the Webelos Leader Guide refer to Webelos camping as "Webelos Den Overnight Camping", which suggests that Webelos are limited to overnight camping - as opposed to multiple night camping.

[MarkS]

I don't know for sure if "overnight" camping implies single night but the GSS and Cub Scout Leader Book both encourage that parents participate in Webelos Den Overnight Camping.

 

Frankly, I would recommend against a Webelos den campout as described. I wouldn't take my den on a campout unless it is a Council Sponsored resident camp for Webelos, a Council Sponsored joint Boy Scout/Webelos camporee, a pack overnighter on Council owned or Council operated property with at least two-deep leadership for the den, or a Webelos den campout on Council owned or Council operated property with parental participation for each boy. There's really no need to go three-quarters across the country to entertain Webelos aged kids. Save it for Boy Scouts when they are more mature and ready for such adventures.

 

A scout is thrifty...(This message has been edited by MarkS)

[SemperParatus]

While I am sure your CM has good intentions, I would say the trip he is planning to the other side of the continent is probably too ambitious for boys of this age.

[John-in-KC]

Has this CM even thought about the cost difference between 4 days/3 nights at the Council Webelos Camp compared to taking youth (and sufficient leaders) to NM from FL????

 

By the way, this trip proposal is certainly long enough to demand a National Tour Permit! I would ask, in Pack Committee, for how he plans to execute this trip, and how he plans to meet National TP standards. If you get "deer in headlights" stare, I would run, not walk, to the unit commissioner, Chartered Organization Representative, and District Executive. Some training and education are obviously in order.

 

(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

[Its Me]

Wow as a Webelos leader I wouldn't plan a trip like that. That is way too big a distance for cubs and their families, There has to be plenty of camping within 4 hours of your north florida location to providing suitable sorroundings to teach Webelos the basics of outdoorsmanship.

 

Heck, you might be able to get to the Appalachian trail in a days drive. But even that seems grandious for 9-10 year old boys. We took seventeen, Webelos I camping a week ago in a county park some 15 miles from our charter organization. All these boys needed to have fun was a fallen tree to climb on, a stick to cook marshmellows and a fire to poke. Grand vistas are not required.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[ScoutMomAng]

Thanks all for your help! Everything I thought you guys (and girls) would say...YOU DID! I just wanted to make sure I was not in the wrong. The CM always has these grand ideas to keep the boys busy all summer long but we are in a military community, most boys are gone for most of the summer, so the participation on a trip like that would probably be low (JMHO) but I wanted to know everybody elses thoughts before I did or said anything. Thanks you are all GREAT!

 

Ang

[Lisabob]

Here's (part of) what the G2SS has to say regarding Webelos den overnighters:

 

"A Webelos Scout may participate in overnight den camping when supervised by an adult. In most cases, the Webelos Scout will be under the supervision of his parent or guardian. It is essential that each Webelos Scout be under the supervision of a parent-approved adult. Joint Webelos den-troop campouts including the parents of the Webelos Scouts are encouraged to strengthen ties between the pack and troop. Den leaders, pack leaders, and parents are expected to accompany the boys on approved trips."

 

 

My understanding (from BALOO training and elsewhere) of the above is that "overnight den camping" means one night. This makes me wonder whether the CM in question has done BALOO training? If not, he needs to because that will better acquaint him with the limits on cub scout camping. Also - has he even considered whether the parents of the boys in question would be interested/able/willing to attend? I'm all for thinking big but in this case if I were on the pack committee I'd probably vote this one down.

 

The jump from day camp to this...seems kind of extreme. Aren't there any webelos resident camp programs in your area that you could suggest instead? Even if your council doesn't have one, maybe a nearby council does? That would also take the burden off of the pack leaders to provide all the details of a summer camp program (see the other thread on an all-volunteer BSA summer camp for some idea of the level of detail involved.)

 

Lisa'bob

A good old bobwhite too!

[MarkS]

The GSS also says, "All Scouts registered in Boy Scout troops are eligible to participate in troop or patrol overnight campouts, camporees, and resident camps."

 

There's that overnight campout phrase again. Does it mean one night or does it mean a type of campout? This description of what is considered permissible Boy Scout camping makes me question the description for what is permissible the Webelos even more because we do know that Webelos can participate in camporees when invited by a Troop and in Council sponsored resident camps.

 

My big complaint with BSA guidelines is the lack of precision and consistancy in their language.

 

I guess that's why we need council camping departments. So they can clarify these ambiguities. If I were ScoutMomAng, I'd certainly be calling my council camping department to find out if the trip planned is even permitted before deciding for myself that it's NOT age appropriate (regardless of what they say). Not that I've made up my mind or anything... ;-)(This message has been edited by MarkS)

[Oak Tree]

I interpret overnight camping to allow for multiple nights, and so do all the other packs I've talked to. In fact, it hardly even ever comes up as a question, never, actually, other than on this board. I did take BALOO training and don't remember anything about one-night-only rules. Our Webelos dens do lots of weekend campouts and have great times. Not that we've ever gone halfway across the country...

 

And yes, we do file trip permits, and council has never complained. They let us camp for multiple nights at their camps. Evidence here is strongly in favor of multiple night camping (the old Webelos book specifically allowed it). Your mileage may vary.

 

Oak Tree

[ManassasEagle]

"Overnight camping" does not literally mean "one night". Both Pack Overnighters and Webelos Den Overnighters can be more than one night. I've taken BALOO, I've taken WLOT (now called OWLSWSLSSLLWSR or something like that), and I've even been a BALOO instructor - somewhere in all that I distinctly remember seeing mention of 72 hours as a differentiator between "short term" (overnight) and "long term" camping. I can't for the life of me find a reference at the moment, but I'm almost sure that's the number I've heard.

[Lisabob]

Well I can see where people could interpret the "pack overnighter" in different ways.

 

Regardless of how long an "overnighter" lasts...taking a group of Webelos scouts from FL to NM, just because you don't want to do Cub Scout Daycamp with them, is not justified in my view. There are too many potential complications and with this age group I don't see a clear rationale for such a trip within the confines of the Cub program, except perhaps that it could be "cool."

 

If a resident camp experience is what the CM is interested in, there must be a BSA resident camp program in the local area that the boys could attend. If he's more interested in doing "real" camping and not summer camp at all, I suppose he could probably do that locally too. Then again, I wonder what the boys want to do? And their parents? They'd probably be just as happy (or happier) going to a traditional resident camp, it would likely be cheaper and more convenient, and it would present far fewer complications.

 

Lisa'bob

A good old bobwhite too!

[SWScouter]

I believe the 72 hours differentiator between long/short term camping has to do with whether a class 1, 2, or 3 medical form is needed or not. Check the medical forms, they should state that. I think (may easily be wrong) that a class 1 form is fine for up to 72 hours of camping for people under 40 if medical help is nearby.

 

SWScouter