Leader/Committee member

[e-scouter]

Actally, could someone clarify this for me. Some of the response seem to be implying that den leaders are not part of the committee.

 

In the troop committee handbook it is pretty clear that the SM and ASM are not voting members of the troop committee. I have never been able to find any similar guidance in the pack leader handbook and so have assumed that the voting membership of the pack committee is comprised of ALL scouters registered with the pack. If anyone can point to a specific citation that indicates otherwise, I would sure appreciate it.

 

That is the way we have always operated, but I would like to know the citations as we do occasionally have rules disputes when someone is trying to press a point.

[fgoodwin]

The chart on page 7-1 of the Cub Scout Leader Book shows the DLs and ACM(s) "reporting" to the CM; the CM in turn "reports" to the Pack Committee.

 

But my experience in several different Packs in two Councils has been that most Committees run by consensus; I've never seen a CC "pull rank" on a CM or DL.

 

But its also generally the case that delivering the program and how that is done, is left to the CM & DLs, whereas supporting the program (fundraising, getting a meeting location, finding a PWD track, handling paperwork, recharter, etc.) is the job of the Committee.

[ScoutNut]

Although I do not have a copy of the "Cub Scout Leader Book", I am sure it is spelled out in there under Pack Committee.

 

Meanwhile, here are some quotes from the online "Cub Scout Leader Fast Start" training :

 

"The pack committee meets as part of the monthly pack leaders' meeting."

 

AND

 

"The pack committee oversees the pack program, helps the Cubmaster plan the upcoming pack meetings and activities, and makes necessary decisions about pack administration."

 

AND

 

"Although the Cubmaster, Tiger Cub den leaders, Cub Scout den leaders, Webelos den leaders, and their assistants are not members of the pack committee, they attend the monthly pack leaders' meetings and participate in planning activities."

 

 

As has been stated before, there shouldn't be a need for "voting". Everyone should be working together as a team. If there is a decision that needs the input of everyone it is usually arrived at by discussion & a consensus of everyone present.

 

[e-scouter]

Agreed that there really should be no need for a vote. If topics are planned far enough in advance there is plenty of time for a consensus.

 

In troop it does work that way, I think because every person involved has had years of interest behind them and has faith in the methods and their fellow leaders and the familiarity needed to hash things out.

 

In pack though there are always a few parents new to the system who think their way is the only way and an occasional vote it the only way to put it to rest. And I'm sorry to say, yes we have had to have the CC pull rank on a CM who failed to understand cub scouts were not boy scouts and tried to take the pack well off the rails into something far above the age-appropriate level.

 

In troop it is no big deal to have SM and ASM not voting as everyone else involved is a MC who is is a pretty big crowd making decisions.

 

In pack though, if you throw out all DL, ADL, CM and ACM you are usually left with just a few people. As well, it is often the less involved parents who sign up as MC since they don't want the burden of a week-in week-out responsibility, so often that group includes the people least qualified to make the decisions. That problem parent in the troop who was one of eight voting members is one of three in the pack (if they all show).

 

In troop, it is clearly the committee's job to create the progeam and the SM's job to carry it out. The manuals make it very clear that the SM and ASM does not vote. I think this works well as a check to keep a strong SM from hijacking the program.

 

In pack we treat it the same way - the committee decides what we will do and within the "big-picture", how. The CM carries out the plan and fills in the details as needed. So basically, it seemed to me that what ScoutNut indicates is right, that DL, ADL, CM, and ACM are not voting members (though that is just implied - never directly stated that I can find). That has the opposite effect though in that it allows a strong MC or CC to hijack the program because the "official" voting population is so small. The manuals imply that the CM to ADL do not vote, but never really come right out and say it.

 

Why care? Because every two or three years some strong-willed parent who doesn't understand the program but does understand the rules joins the committee, finds the clauses to suggest only they vote, and pushes the matter as a means of increasing their power to take the pack where they want without wasting any time building consensus. It is always ultimately fixable, but in the end requires action by the COR and leaves a lot of annoyed people and bruised egos in the wake. We are fumpling about trying to find the best way to control this problem in the future.

 

 

I lean toward a middle road. The CM and ACM do not vote to avoid an "imperial CM", but the DL and ADL do. This, with a wise CC, gives a big enough voting group to make sure there is a reasonable consensus. As I said though, I can't find that there is anything in print that really makes perfectly clear who votes and who doesn't, just all these open-ended implications. That just leaves us open to this occasional annoying parent who wants to interpret a rule to fit their desires.

[ScoutNut]

e-scouter, you can't find anything on who votes & who doesn't because voting is NOT part of the process.

 

If you have unqualified people simply "signing up" to be a committee member, then your Pack is not doing things the way the BSA has it set up. The members of the committee should be selected, not just "signed up". These committee members are not just bodies with the title of committee member. They should have specific jobs. Some of these could be Secretary, Treasurer, Advancements, Outings, Training, etc.

 

BSA has developed a method for finding qualified leaders for your Pack that works quite well.

 

http://www.scouting.org/commissioners/resources/13-500.pdf

 

They also have a good training for your Charter Org Rep that every unit should get theirs to attend :

 

http://www.scouting.org/relationships/04-113/04-113.pdf

 

If a person trys to "hijack" the committee or push for something that is against BSA rules, then all that should be needed is for SOMEONE at the meeting to state firmly that it is against the rules & CAN NOT be done. I did that many moons ago with the infamous "Upside Down Bobcat"!

 

Training is the key for committee members, CM & den leaders alike.

 

Boy, our leaders & committee are not perfect by any means, & we are not always strictly by the BSA book, but we try, & we really do work pretty well together to give the boys in our Pack the best program we can. Sometimes, reading the posts here, I realize just how lucky we are!

[e-scouter]

Scoutnut - I agree completely. I should have outlined the situation better.

 

I was in the pack for a decade or so, through the many ups and downs and thought it was in pretty good shape when I moved to troop. Unfortunately this was immediately followed by two parents who took over CC and CM (in the proper manner - I thought they were good choices myself) who proceeded to decide everything done by everyone before them was wrong. All the experienced leaders left when I did and everyone left was either a friend of theirs or new and knew no better. The COR is there in name only, so no help there. The UC is uninvolved. Leaders had no training and no interest in getting training (while the previous group were all trained and included some Wood Badgers - and don't tell me we should have gotten them trained. That was a big issue and they used every opportunity to avoid it. We would have recruited replacements were any candidates available).

 

In the course of two years they rode over everyone else until the active committee consisted of them alone, drove the program into the ground and have now left the pack. It was not a matter of doing things against BSA rules so much as just changing the pack in ways that made it easier for the adults but boooring for the kids. Thankfully the CM caried things along OK where she had authority, but he was permitted no say in the "big picture" way the pack was operated and was really the only useful one in the bunch.

 

I have been asked to help put the pieces back together. Those leaders who were new two years ago have more experience now, see where it went wrong, and are interested in doing things right, getting training, and using the knowledge and experience of others. We are also carefully recruiting and slowly training the new leaders with bits of responsibility, given judiciously. The COR and UC are still uninvolved, but that is a fight for another day - I suspect that will ultimately involve a change of personnel (I'm working on it).

 

I am confident that with the leaders they have now, all will be good. The question is how to best use this period of calm to build a system that will stand up to future changes of leadership. I'd like some way I could set it up and get them used to working that will ensure that strong personalities do not dominate the group as it did before, but it seems like they system is really set up in a way that ensures strong personalities will dominate unless there are equally strong personalities to stop it. I suppose that is what the UC should have been there to do - to bad he didn't.

[Newbie Den Leader]

QUOTE: "Wow, I didn't realize there were Packs that actually had committee members who weren't also leaders! Must be nice! In the 7 years that my family has been involved with our Pack, most leaders have had to take on a second position..."

 

This sounds like my Pack and we're a pretty good Pack with "trained" and caring den leaders and CM. Our CC is in-active and our COR is AWOL. We rarely have monthly Pack leader meetings because of scheduling conflicts between the leaders. Fortunately, parent involvement is very good and our Unit Commissioner is active and invloved with our needs and issues. Our Pack loods good on the outside and we're having fun with the Cubs, but we're not a model of organization that the BSA would like for us to be.

 

The BSA would probably consider us a "mess", but ironically, we meet the requirements for the "Quality Unit" award.