I NEED ADVICE.......PLEASE!

[kramr1]

I am a new den leader. I started 2 months ago. The reason I became den leader is because I was not happy with how our den leader was leading the den (we are now a bear den). After working with this den leader for 2 months I had enough. She would not communicate with me. She blocked my e-mail address and when I would call her on the phone she would hang up on me.She was bad mouthing me (among other things)to the other leaders and parents of the den. She was making me out to be a fool. She did not want my help and resented that I was there. As tiger cubs we started with 14 boys. We now have only 4 of those original 14 left. The parents of half of the boys who quit told me directly that they were leaveing because of her. One Mother even chewed her out in front of the entire den. I finally was frustrated enough to tell the cubmaster that I was resigning my position as den leader. He would not allow that. Instead, he set up a meeting with me, her, him, and a pack committee member. She did not show up. At this meeting I found out that the committee member (i think he is committee chair)wanted to get rid of her 2 years ago but our cubmaster talked him out of it because he had no one to replace her. Now the cubmaster has finally had enough of her and wanted her gone also.They had 2 pages worth of various violations of pack policy by her.The committee member told me point blank that she will either quit or be fired by our chartered organization rep. It was her choice. He then went on to say "we now have an opening for a bear den leader, are you interested?" I accepted under those terms. Because she did not show up they decided to wait until last nights meeting to "fire" her. Wanting to be proactive I started planning for last nights den meeting. One thing I did was create a newsletter for the parents. This newsletter stated my name and phone number and a plan for novembers den/pack activities. The parents did not get this until they picked up their sons at the end of the meeting. After the meeting our committee member pull me into a room and "kinda" tossed that newsletter in my direction and said "what the hell is this". No good evening, no how ya doing, just "what the hell is this". That really bothered me. He then went on to say that because I issued that newsletter that she would remain a leader of the den. He said I should have waited until she was officially removed from then den. I was floored. She was a bad leader that they wanted to get rid of. How could one benign newsletter change that fact? She was a bad leader before and will be a bad leader after the newsletter. What do I do? I cannot and will not work with her. Do I resign again? I really feel the boys are being short changed because of her. I don't want to just give up but after all that has happened I cannot work with her. Do I take my concerns to the district level, to the council level? Do I contact our rep? I really need some advice. I am frustrated and am at a loss. Please help!

[SemperParatus]

Well everything seemed to be coming together until the committee chair (?) took offense to your newsletter. He thinks you were jumping the gun, you think you were just being proactive and helpful. His response sounds juvenile. For two years he has wanted the DL gone and has built up a long list of violations, then he plans to have the COR do the firing. Based on what you have said, it sounds to me like the CC is scared of the DL lady and is using your newsletter as the excuse not to confront her with a 'firing'. I suspect the district and council types will not get involved in this den/pack squabble.

 

Is there a possibility to transfer to another den? Is there another pack you can visit?

[Trevorum]

I am so sorry this is occurring in your pack, Unfortunately, this is not a Cub Scouting issue, it is a petty conflict between parents - which is altogether common in parents of in this age group, be it youth soccer, dance recitals, whatever. The very sad part is that the kids suffer. I mightily wish those 10 kids who dropped from your den would have had a chance to earn their Arrow of Light and go on to reap the benefits of Boy Scouting.

 

I agree with Semper. If your son likes Cub Scouts, my recommendation would be to bend over backwards to find a way to keep him in the program. This might mean finding another, less explosive, pack. It might mean swallowing hard and backing off. Good luck.

[Prairie_Scouter]

I'm sorry that things have worked out so badly for you kramr1. I agree with most of what has been said, but if it were me (and it's not, of course), I don't think I'd back down on this, for sake of your son in Scouting. It sounds like you have the right idea for how a den should be run. Your CC is, well, I'm not sure what you're CC is doing. If you're CC doesn't appreciate the effort you've already put in, I'm sure that there are other packs that would. Your son would probably also appreciate a new view of Scouting from a new pack. If you can get your CC to get "with the program", as it were, you might have a chance to recover the Scouts who have left as well. But if you can't get his committment to support you, you're in for a tough haul. Remember, Scouting is supposed to be FUN; better to find a pack that is fun if your current pack isn't working out.

[kramr1]

Thank you all for your thoughts on this issue. However, I do disagree with Trevorum. I believe this IS a Cub Scouting issue. As leaders we are responsible to carry out a quality program directed by quality leaders. If we have neither then who suffers? The boys will. She has already demonstrated her inability to adhere to pack policy. I do not want to leave the pack either. Other than this particular leader we have what I think is a very good program. The other leaders in the pack do not even have any sons in Cub Scouts anymore. They are there because of the boys. I am NOT going to back down on this issue. This DL really needs to go. Our den is suffering because of her. If I cannot get the support of the CM and CC then I will have to take it to the district level and beyond if I need to. If I cut and run now what message will that send the boys? When the chips are down then quit?? Thats not a good scouting attitude! I will fight the good fight but not for me. For the boys. They deserve a good leader.

Thanks again for your thoughts. More opinions would be appreciated!

[bbng]

I would agree that this is not a Cub Scout issue, but it does effect the program because boys are leaving and families are unhappy. Not only might families continue to leave, but it's hard to recruit new people into a chaotic atmosphere where adults don't get along.

 

They had 2 pages worth of various violations of pack policy by her.The committee member told me point blank that she will either quit or be fired by our chartered organization rep. It was her choice.

 

Two pages of violations of pack policies but the den leader is still there. That says to me (and I could be very wrong) that the COR may not be in favor of removing this leader or may not be aware of the problems. Also, saying the leader gets to make a choice on whether to quit or be fired, and fired by one who is not even present, is another red flag. What I see is personality conflicts, possibly a lack of backbone in the adult leadership, and in the meantime a pack needs to serve the boys but is clearly side-tracked because of people's behavior.

 

Good luck, and my thought would be that this is the time for you to have a talk directly with the COR, and to verify who the CC is and talk with that person as well. You expressed doubt "thinking that this committee member was the CC", so it would be helpful to know for certain. The single most important person--after the boys of course--is the COR.

[Trevorum]

Kramr1,

I apologize that my post wasn't clearer! I did not mean to imply that this is a problem which we we should ignore. What I tried to say was that this is not unique to Cub Scouting, that it is not a result of the Scouting program itself: rather, this type of problem can be found in just about all organizations for grade school youth which are run by the parents. You are 100% right that the quality of the program is directly tied to the adult volunteers. And you are right - the boys deserve a good DL. It sounds like you are a pro-active Scouter. I sincerely wish you good luck with your den!

[backinbsa]

Congrats on being the new DL I just recently got back into scouting with my two boys I'm a DL also We had abad experince at our Pack last year when my 2 were Tigers but i did sime research found a better pack and all is grand. One thing we all need to remember is this is for the kids and we just help facilitate the fun We are all volunteers but we have rules we need to follow to project the dignity of others whether it is adults or scouts

[CA_Scouter]

FIND

 

ANOTHER

 

PACK!

 

 

I wouldn't step into this xxxx with hip waders!

 

[backinbsa]

First i need to appoligize for the 3 postings this site is slow then I would like to state the same find another pack

[cajuncody]

I feel for you. However, this is not a district or council level issue. If you were to read my history of posts you would see that I have been there, done that, and now hold the position of the other leader. Really the only way to actually have anything done in the pack with out the support of the cc is through the cor. It is up to the Charter Organazation and COR to recruit leaders, they also have to approve the leaders. Your DE and council people have no duck in this pond. If it were me (and it once was) I would go to the COR and the CO head and let them know what is going on. I would also be sure to have a copy of "said newsletter" as exhibit A and I would invite the CM and CC to join me but the meeting would take place with or without them if from no other footing than concerned parent. This is the CO's pack, they will have final say.

Good luck and if you are in my area give me a call we can always use good leaders.

Kristi

[Lisabob]

kram1, a couple thoughts based on my own experiences trying to pick up pieces in a pack that went through something similar.

 

1. It may be that you inadvertantly made a problematic situation worse for the committee by issuing that newsletter. If they hadn't had time to go through the proper motions for firing the other DL and officially hiring you, your action may be seen as a power play on your part to force the issue. Now I am sure this is not what you intended and it may be horribly unfair but still, some people will see it this way.

 

So it may be useful for you to apologize to the committee for (again, INADVERTANTLY) making things any harder than they needed to be. If you do this, make sure to stay calm and rational and keep it short.

 

2. From your description, the CC acted terribly here. He needs to develop some better leadership skills. You have every right to be angry with the CC's response and solution (keeping the DL?!). However you're going to need to address this with the committee in a non-confrontational way. Could be that the CC was angry that your newsletter may make his job harder, and yet upon reflection I bet he knows he reacted badly. Give him several opportunities to gracefully reverse his statement about keeping the DL. If he apologizes in any way, take it at face value and start looking forward to what you can all do together to build a great program. After all, that's why you want to be part of the leadership, right?

 

3. If your pack has a good Unit Commissioner (part of the district-level staff), this is a great place for that person to offer assistance. Your UC ought to be able to help the pack identify proper procedure for getting rid of a lousy volunteer, as well as correctly replacing them with someone new. And UC's usually have lots of experience to draw from in terms of handling these sort of sticky adult blow outs. So if yours is any good, ask the CC and CM to involve him or her. But only do this if you aren't able to make progress with your CC and committee first.

 

4. If all of this fails despite your best efforts then yes, look at other packs. You'll need to explain this to your son. Don't share the nasty adult politics with him, just focus on the way the program is provided. If den or pack meetings aren't fun for the boys (because the leaders aren't doing a good job), your son will understand that without knowing the details. You can point out that other packs work differently and you want him to be part of a pack where the boys can't wait for the next meeting.

 

Good luck and hang in there. If you are able to work it out you'll have a better pack and den, and you'll teach your son a good lesson about working through difficulties. If it turns out you need to find another pack, you're still showing him that simply quitting isn't the way to go either.

 

Lisa'bob

A good old bobwhite too!

 

 

[bbng]

kramr1, I was remiss in not saying welcome to both Cub Scouting and to the forums. Welcome!

[briantshore]

You did not tell us what the violations were.

For instance, if it involved Youth Protection violations, or safety, then these would need to be reported to the DE. I do not understand why a leader would ignore feedback from the parents on how the program is run. I agree with some of the others, go and find another pack if this is possable.

[theysawyoucomin']

I don't know what planet you live on but Scouting is a positive thing in Castleton NY. The politicians in our county are crooks but we have a great Scouting program and you are always welcome to join.

 

Do all the helpers in your pack look like they straggled in from the Little Big Horn full of arrows in the back?(no offense meant to the native folks that were being exterminated at the time, IF THEY ONLY HAD COMPOUND BOWS!)

 

Is the COR waiting for three pages of violations???????

 

Run, Run very fast. Grab your kid up as fast as you can, sometimes spectators get hurt watchin' gun fights!

 

Get a life jacket and move to the life boat quickly.

 

Good luck and God bless you.