kramr1 Posted October 19, 2005 Share Posted October 19, 2005 Last night at the den meeting we made birdfeeders(bear achievement 5b). My co-den leader says that because the boys decorated the birdfeeder they will also get credit towards the art belt loop. I said no. We can give credit towards one or the other but not both. However she insists that she is right because "i've always done it that way". She has been den leader for a few years and this is my first year as den leader so she thinks I know nothing. So what is the answer? Does it count for both or just one? Thank You. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mbscoutmom Posted October 19, 2005 Share Posted October 19, 2005 I would count it. They didn't have to decorate the bird feeders, so I would consider making it and decorating it two different things. When I plan den meetings, I try to help the boys earn as many achievements and awards as they can. Last night, for instance, we made trail mix, took a short hike, using the buddy system, to a park where we read information about the history of our city, and put our trash in the trash can. This one den meeting counted towards 2 achievements, 1 elective, and the Leave No Trace Award. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Nelson Posted October 19, 2005 Share Posted October 19, 2005 I think you have reason to be concerned about this leader's "generous" giving of credit. Which one of these three Art belt loop requirements does she think the boys have completed? 1. Make a list of common materials used to create visual art compositions. 2. Demonstrate how 6 of the following elements of design are used in a drawing - lines, circles, dots, shapes, colors, patterns, textures, space, balance, or perspective. 3. Identify the 3 primary and 3 secondary colors that can be made by mixing them. Show how this is done using paints or markers. Use the primary and secondary colors to create a painting. I don't see how ANY of those could be satisfied by decorating a birdfeeder. You don't do the boys any favors by giving them awards they have not earned. They will accept them, but not value them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msnowman Posted October 19, 2005 Share Posted October 19, 2005 I would be concerned about "double dipping" if the exact activity was being used to cover two different requirements. For example, taking a family hike at a Wildlife Refuge couldn't be used for both 5d (visit a zoo, aviary, wildlife refuge) and 12b (take a hike with your family), as it is one event. However, in my mind, the birdfeeder thing could be counted as two seperate things as there were two seperate activities going on. I think of it like this - if we made birdfeeders on week, thats one thing. If, in the next meeting we decorated those same birdfeeders (or completely different ones), that's another thing. The example MBscoutmom uses is another example, they had many different elements taking place on one outing. I don't think the rule against double dipping was meant to say you can't work on more than 1 requirement at a time. My Wolf/Bear den took a trip to the local police station and had their fingerprints done while they were there. That fits both 7a & 7b, and I wouldn't consider it double dipping since the activities are different. Yis YMMV Michelle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
acco40 Posted October 19, 2005 Share Posted October 19, 2005 Who signs off on Bear requirements? (The Scouts Akela - i.e. Den Leader, Parent, Principal, Teacher, etc.) Where is this proverbial "double dipping" disclaimer listed in the BSA literature? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prairie_Scouter Posted October 19, 2005 Share Posted October 19, 2005 I would also like a reference to the "double dipping" rule. In the example given, that of taking a family hike to a wildlife refuge not getting credit for 2 achievements, I don't see why not, really. They are different activities, and the fact that someone was able to merge them into one event shouldn't count against them, I don't think. I'll happily stand corrected, tho, if someone could reference the rule. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msnowman Posted October 19, 2005 Share Posted October 19, 2005 Since acco40 asked, I had to go look it up to see for myself...and ya know, the only place I specifically found a caveat against double dipping is in the AoL requirements, number 4 (With your Webelos den, visit at least one Boy Scout troop meeting, one Boy Scout-oriented outdoor activity.(If you have already done this when you earned your Outdoorsman activity badge, you may not use it to fulfill requirements for your Arrow of Light Award requirements.) and number 5 (Participate in a Webelos overnight campout or day hike. (If you have already done this when you earned your Outdoorsman activity badge, you may not use it to fulfill requirements for your Arrow of Light Award requirements.) ). So, I guess we can use one achievement to cover as many achievements/electives as we need to. Which would make the answer to the initial question - Sure, use it for both if it meets the requirements. Definately makes things easier for parents. /smile Yis Michelle ETA - I would delete my above post, since I totally stand corrected, but then references to it wouldn't make sense for anybody else to read.(This message has been edited by msnowman)(This message has been edited by msnowman) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FScouter Posted October 19, 2005 Share Posted October 19, 2005 "Sure, use it for both " Yes, if it meets the requirements for both. See Greg's post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScoutNut Posted October 19, 2005 Share Posted October 19, 2005 "No double dipping" is a Girl Scout thing. In this case (art belt loop) I would say NO. Not because of using 1 thing to cover 2 requirements. Unless you talked about, mixed together, & worked with, primary & secondary colors while decorating the birdfeeders, it does not cover any of the art belt loop requirements at all. Get a copy of the Academic & Sports Program book & show her the requirements for the art belt loop & pin. This can be a fun loop/pin for the boys to earn. Do it right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FScouter Posted October 19, 2005 Share Posted October 19, 2005 "You don't do the boys any favors by giving them awards they have not earned. They will accept them, but not value them." Worth repeating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hendrickms24 Posted October 20, 2005 Share Posted October 20, 2005 Here are a couple of examples of "double dipping" with in the Cub Scout program. So its not just black and white but alots of grey areas with in the program. Cub Scout Outdoor Activity Award All Ranks Must... Attend Cub Scout day camp or Cub Scout/Webelos Scout resident camp. (To be completed after September 1, 2004.) Elective 23E: Attend day camp in your area. If you earn the Archery and BB Gun Belt loops you also earn electives too. Elective 20C: Earn the Cub Scouting shooting sports Archery belt loop. Elective 20N: Earn the Cub Scouting shooting sports BB-gun shooting belt loop. Mark Maranto (This message has been edited by hendrickms24) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kramr1 Posted October 20, 2005 Author Share Posted October 20, 2005 Thank you all for your advice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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