Must you have an "official" uniform to salute the flag?

[The Latin Scot]

I must respectfully disagree. I find that most people who defend wearing jeans with the uniform are those who insist that we mainstream what is an inherently casual garment, and I don't believe that supporting, or worse, endorsing, the slow slide towards 'casual Scouting' is a move worthy of our consideration. 

There is a legitimate psychological effect underlying the reason we wear official Scout pants or shorts in place of jeans, an effect that comes from (among other things) color, fabric, and our vision. See, the eye automatically makes connections through color - red lights mean stop, blue skies mean clear weather, orange and black make us think of Halloween. Our eyes trigger memories and connections that we associate with things we know, and they affect how we feel, act or react. The Boy Scout uniform does that very thing when worn correctly; the khaki and olive combination generates an instinctive recognition in the minds of those who are even vaguely familiar with Scouting, a recognition that is associated with service, good deeds, helping old ladies across the street, et cetera. However, blue jeans disrupt that mental response; whether we realize it or not, those who are familiar with the uniform recognize when something is off. That is especially true with blue denim; our cultural perception of jeans is still one of casual or work wear, and when worn with the Scout shirt, then no matter how "clean or free of holes" the jeans may be, they will elicit a different effect. The very obvious color and fabric deviations inherent in blue denim are glaringly obvious even from a long distance. This isn't saying people will disdain the first Scout they see in jeans, nor even that they will disapprove of it - but there IS a different response to the boy in a shirt and jeans when compared to the boy in full uniform,.The one may garner recognition, but the other will generate a greater respect. I am sure there will be all kinds of comments to dispute this, and perhaps this is off topic considering the nature of this thread - but I feel it's important that I say it anyway.

Now, in some parts of the country people may have acclimated themselves to the lesser effect of the 'shirt n' jeans combo meal', but as Scout leaders we shouldn't be so quick to accept a lesser standard in response. If a business or law department allows that kind of deviation that is their business. But the Boy Scouts of America very clearly specifies what our standards are. As Scouters we should exemplify a higher law - the idea that just because something is accepted doesn't mean it's the best choice. That's how we become comfortable with mediocrity, and we should expect more than that from our Scouts and from ourselves. There is good, and there is better, and there is best. And what do we teach our youngest Scouts? 

Do your best.

[Shannoncornthwaite]

I must also disagree. The same psychological effect is also felt in many who wear jeans rather than the traditional uniform pants. When i was a scout, i hated wearing my traditional uniform pants. I felt auqward, they didnt feel right, they didnt look right. Ive always been a jeans guy as many are. We feel out of place wearing anything else even if it is tradition. 

[DuctTape]

I think the psychological effect TLS is referring is to the observer. The wearer's "comfort" is different (often irrelevant as in this case and the example below). There is a reason why IBM required its sales staff to wear a certain type of "uniform". It was not for the employee, but for the client.

[Eagledad]

3 hours ago, Shannoncornthwaite said:

I must also disagree. The same psychological effect is also felt in many who wear jeans rather than the traditional uniform pants. When i was a scout, i hated wearing my traditional uniform pants. I felt auqward, they didnt feel right, they didnt look right. Ive always been a jeans guy as many are. We feel out of place wearing anything else even if it is tradition. 

Yep, you are missing the point of the Uniform Method. Scouting is about making good decisions. What are the guidelines for uniform in the Scout Handbook. What kind of decision is the scout making if they choose their personal desire instead of considering the rest of the patrol and troop. 

Uniform has many purposes, including building unity with your fellow scouts as well as developing a healthy mind.

Barry

Edited October 30, 2018 by Eagledad

[WisconsinMomma]

I am always impressed whenever we have a guest speaker from the police or fire department or the military, how awesome they look in their uniforms.  I mean, there's a very clear, sharp identity that comes from wearing a uniform well.  Now Scouters are a little bit of a sloppy bunch in comparison, we are clearly volunteers with our various bling and whatnot, we are obviously not professionals in uniform.  But a uniform gives an impression when it is worn well.

P.S. I hate the pants but I have like 3 pairs!

[WisconsinMomma]

On 10/13/2005 at 11:10 AM, mariewendan said:

Wow- the responses are so varied, I am still not sure what to do. Obviously if they are in the T-shirt- I would have them at least put their hand over their heart, but to have them do the cub scout salute somehow feels wrong if they are not in the offical cub scout uniform. However, like others- I cannot find anything in print saying that- so I have no basis for my feelings...I guess I'll just have to go along w/ my committee chairperson's "rules" and have all scouts salute with the cub scout salute whether in a uniform or in a pack T-shirt.

 

Thanks everyone!!!

With young Cub Scouts, I would not get too picky over it.  Make sure you are setting the right example personally, the kids look up to you!

[The Latin Scot]

3 hours ago, Shannoncornthwaite said:

I must also disagree. The same psychological effect is also felt in many who wear jeans rather than the traditional uniform pants. When i was a scout, i hated wearing my traditional uniform pants. I felt auqward, they didnt feel right, they didnt look right. Ive always been a jeans guy as many are. We feel out of place wearing anything else even if it is tradition. 

This is exactly the kind of mentality we want to prevent. We don't want Scouts to ignore the uniform just because they aren't comfortable in it, and many of those people who have become too attached to their jeans may have even more to learn from the correct uniform than the boys themselves. We expect these kids to mature, and to learn to do things not for themselves, but for others. I have a friend who is a Marine, and I once had him come and speak to my Scouts about his uniform and how he feels about it. He appeared in full dress uniform, and he looked INCREDIBLE. It was clean; it was sharp; it was powerful. One of the boys asked him if his uniform was uncomfortable -  he said yes, it was - but that he felt strong and brave when he wore it, and that was worth any personal discomfort on his part. He talked about how close and unified he was with his fellow marines because they saw each other as being brothers in the same cause, and that he was able to make better choices when he stood side by side with his fellow patriots in their uniforms, all paying attention to the tiniest details because it made them feel like one united body of brothers. 

The Scout uniform can do that very same thing. And as leaders, we have a duty to set the example.

Edited October 30, 2018 by The Latin Scot

[Shannoncornthwaite]

I felt the same way as that marine when I was a scout and still do even without the uniform pants because in our community and pack jeans have become part of our uniform.the majority of the scouts and leaders wear jeans with uniform shirt. Being in a farming community, dirt and dust show up far to easily on the navy blue pants just walking from the vehicle to the meeting, even while playing games in our meetings. I would rather our kids be clean (which is part of the scout law) and comfortable in their jeans than constantly dusty/dirty and uncomfortable in the scout pants. Because if the kids are comfortable theyre more likely to keep coming back. And lets not forget, the price of these uniforms are ridiculously expensive. Some families can barely afford to buy the shirt let alone everything else. Are you saying those kids shouldnt have the same opportunity of being a cub scout as those who are more than able to afford it? 

[The Latin Scot]

Nope. I'm saying you should be clever and come up with solutions to get every boy into the best uniform possible! Collect old uniforms, do more fundraising, start a uniform exchange - be creative! I have many economically-challenged families in my Den, so we have to think of all kinds of innovative solutions to get every boy into a complete uniform - but we do it, and the boys look AND FEEL great! A Scout is thrifty, so think of solutions! But don't accept mediocrity. And I have NEVER heard of any boy, girl or leader complaining that the uniform pants are ANY less comfortable than jeans. How are they so terribly uncomfortable? They're normal pants! Or shorts, which I find infinitely more comfortable than any jeans in the world. These are subjective, flimsy arguments that are still centered on one's self rather than the movement as a whole, let alone the den as a body. And yeah, the pants are going to get dusty, even dirty - that's Scouting! We're outside! We get dirty, and then we go home and wash them up! Really, these are not difficult principles, but we are so accustomed to making ourselves happy that we lose opportunities to make ourselves BETTER. The uniforms help us to reverse that inward focus and look beyond ourselves towards our dens, our troops, and our communities.

Edited October 30, 2018 by The Latin Scot

[FireStone]

I've suspected for a while now that the uniform might become less and less a priority in the BSA. Seems like it's already happening, based on what I've seen out of National, more people wearing just the neckerchief in the UK style (friendship knot), marketing materials and photos showing scouts in casual attire more often, etc.

So it kind of doesn't matter what we think of uniform standards, as they are likely changing as we speak.

[SSScout]

The idea of "jeans" is not for ease of the Scout, but ease of the parent.   If the Cub is encouraged to take pride in the way he looks and acts, where does he/she get that from?  Many kids will do one of two things:  Please their parent or "test" things to see what they can get away with.   

When I was a Cub master, we had a boy who would come to meetings with his Cub shirt over his tshirt, but not buttoned or tucked in his pants (which were not Cub uniform , another issue). His parent ,who was a single mom and a professional counselor by trade, came every meeting. I asked her about the Cub's uniform, and she said he didn't want to button his shirt, it made him "uncomfortable".  Did he like being a Cub?  Yes , indeed.    One evening, I knelt down and asked the Cub about his shirt. I said I knew he would look really good if he had his shirt buttoned up like the other Cubs and I proceeded to button up his shirt, with his mom looking on.  I finished, all the time praising his "Cubness",  and adjusted his neckerchief, the Cub didn't protest.   After that, he attended every meeting, shirt buttoned, necker neat, and  participated easily.  How did I affect things?  Who knows.  

[Shannoncornthwaite]

Ssscout... I do agree with that. I often see scouts attend meetings with their shirts unbuttoned, often wearing their shirts with sweat pants or leggings (girls) some of them not wearing their neckers or some of them wearing their hats in a church. Some times its a few of the girls in the den im the assistant den leader of, sometimes its my son's tiger den. Ive tried mentioning different things to the leaders of both dens and often theyll shrug me off (their den theyll kead how they see fit type thing).

One is telling the Tigers they can only do the scout salute during the pledge if theyre wearing their hat. Ive mentioned to her that isnt correct and she shrugged me off then meeting after meeting continues to tell them to do it the wrong way. As someone who grew up in scouts with my mom as den leader and cub master, being told to wear my uniform properly to every scouting event, things like this make me cringe. The jeans dont because the scouts still look nice and properly dressed even if not in full official uniform. 

[ianwilkins]

On 10/31/2018 at 5:32 PM, FireStone said:

more people wearing just the neckerchief in the UK style (friendship knot)

Small point of order, I'm not sure where or why the friendship knot started or gained traction, whether it was in the UK or what, but there are still plenty that are more than happy with woggles (slides you say? How odd.  ) over this side of the pond*. Though it does seem to have either come down from above, not sure when it started, but a desire to be seen as more "action" and less "stuffy". If memory serves I think it started getting traction in the UK around the World Jamboree in 2007. It may seem like it comes from the higher-ups as they're more likely to go to these international junkets. A UK forum (might even have been usenet) some members started disparaging HQ initiatives that they disagreed with as product from the "woggeless wonders". Though to argue both sides, the friendship knot is becoming more and more common.

 Then again, may a lot of it's part of the gradual casualisation of clothing generally in the UK. My first job I was required to wear a proper suit jacket and tie. These days many don't even wear proper shirts.

* Though, I confess, I'm more of a friendship knot man these days, but with a couple of woggles slid onto the "arms" of the necker before tying the knot, otherwise no one would ever see my Scouts de Argentina woggle gifted to me from one of their leaders, and that would never do! I'm generally only switching to a "proper" smart woggle arrangement for things like Remembrance Sunday (Veterans Day) parade.

 

[FireStone]

On 11/23/2018 at 12:33 PM, ianwilkins said:

Small point of order, I'm not sure where or why the friendship knot started or gained traction, whether it was in the UK or what, but there are still plenty that are more than happy with woggles (slides you say? How odd.  ) over this side of the pond*. Though it does seem to have either come down from above, not sure when it started, but a desire to be seen as more "action" and less "stuffy"...

Makes sense if that was indeed the intent. Bear Grylls is certainly wearing it well in a more "action" style, and selling that image of modern scouting. 

There's not much "action" in the US style, especially at the Cub level where those little neckerchiefs are too small to stay around their necks if they do any running/climbing/playing, etc. The running joke in my Wolf den is whether we can make it through the meeting opening without the familiar sound of a metal neckerchief slide hitting the ground. 😅

The neckers that can be worn with a friendship knot are usually the larger variety that seem to be able to stay in place better. 

[Ranman328]

I have been a stickler for years to wear the uniform.  Now I do not think everyone needs to go out and buy the $40 Scout pants from BSA as I feel they are over priced.  In our Troop,  we refer to "Scout like " pants.  These cargo type pants can be purchased at Walmart, Amazon and various other places for around $15.  Once a Scout gets to First Class Rank, they should think about wearing the complete uniform.  In our Troop, we have Scout Accounts and many fundraisers for the Scouts to earn funds.  We allow the Scouts to be reimbursed for equipment and uniforms items as we know not all families have the funds to purchase these items.