Are we robing the good stuff from Webelos to make Boy Scouts more interesting?

[Its Me]

Compare a Weblos Fitness requirement with a tenderfoot rank requirement. The Tenderfoot is much more physical even than the fitness element in Webelos.

 

 

Webelos has write a safety booklet tenderfoot has demonstare the heimlich maneuver.

 

Webelos keep a record of your daily meals, Tenderfoot count how many push-ups.

 

It would appear that there is some sacrificing of the webelos program in order to grab the first year boy scout's attention. A real robiing of Peter to pay Paul.

 

 

Webelos Fitness:

 

-With a parent or other adult family member complete a safety notebook, which is discussed in the booklet "How to Protect Your Children from Child Abuse " that is in your Webelos handbook.

Read the meal planning information in this chapter. With a parent or other family member, plan a week of meals. Explain what kinds of meals are best for you and why.

-Keep a record of your daily meals and snacks for a week. Decide -whether you have been eating foods that are good for you.

-Tell an adult member of your family about the bad effects smoking or chewing tobacco would have on your body.

-Tell an adult member of your family four reasons why you should not use alcohol and how it could affect you.

-Tell an adult member of your family what drugs could do to your body and how they would affect your ability to think clearly.

-Read the booklet Take A Stand Against Drugs! Discuss it with an adult and show that you understand the material.

 

Tenderfoor rank:

-Present yourself to your leader, properly dressed, before going on an overnight camping trip. Show the camping gear you will use. Show the right way to pack and carry it.

Spend at least one night on a patrol or troop campout. Sleep in a tent you have helped pitch.

-On the campout, assist in preparing and cooking one of your patrol's meals. Tell why it is important for each patrol member to share in meal preparation and cleanup, and explain the importance of eating together.

-a. Demonstrate how to whip and fuse the ends of a rope.

-b. Demonstrate you know how to tie the following knots and tell what their uses are: two half hitches and the taut-line hitch.

-Explain the rules of safe hiking, both on the highway and cross-country, during the day and at night. Explain what to do if you are lost.

-Demonstrate how to display, raise, lower, and fold the American flag.

-Repeat from memory and explain in your own words the Scout Oath, Law, motto, and slogan.

-Know your patrol name, give the patrol yell, and describe your patrol flag.

Explain why we use the buddy system in Scouting.

-a. Record your best in the following tests:

Push-ups

Pull-ups

Sit-ups

Standing long jump

1/4 mile walk/run

b. Show improvement in the activities listed in requirement 10a after practicing for 30 days.

-Identify local poisonous plants; tell how to treat for exposure to them.

a. Demonstrate the Heimlich maneuver and tell when it is used.

b. Show first aid for the following:

Simple cuts and scratches

Blisters on the hand and foot

Minor burns or scalds (first degree)

Bites and stings of insects and ticks

Poisonous snakebite

Nosebleed

Frostbite and sunburn

Demonstrate scout spirit by living the Scout Oath (Promise) and Scout Law in your everyday life.

Participate in a Scoutmaster conference.

Complete your board of review

 

 

[SWScouter]

It's Me, you might try listing all the Fitness Activity Badge requirements. The Webelos scout doesn't need to do all of them, just most of them.

 

Also, the Fitness Activity Badge, may be better named Health instead. Your physical activity comparison would work better with the Athlete Activity Badge. It has requirements that are almost exactly the same as the physical requirements for Tenderfoot. Then you can compare the First Aid requirements with the Readyman Activity Badge requirements and some others to the Arrow of Light requirements. Comparisons can continue but they get tiring at best. In general the Webelos/AOL requirements cover most of the same stuff that the Scout/Tenderfoot/2nd Class/1st Class requirements cover but normally not as in depth nor breadth.

 

SWScouter

[molscouter]

I'm not sure where you are going with all of this.

 

Read the requirements for the Readyman badge (required for Arrow of Light). It covers a lot of the same first aid elements as the tenderfoot through first class ranks require.

 

Read the Athlete badge. Sounds a lot like the tenderfoot requirements.

 

Read the requirements for the Personal Fitness Merit Badge (Eagle required). Several of the general health related requirements are very similar to the Fitness activity badge.

 

You need to start thinking of the activity pins for what they are, quasi merit badges. If you look at the overall structure of rank advancement for both Cub Scouts and Boy Scouts, they are very similar. For the lower ranks (Bobcat/Wolf/Bear and Scout/Tenderfoot/second/First Class) it is basically do a, b, c, etc. The upper ranks (Webelos/Arrow of Light vs. Star/Life/Eagle) have required merit badges/activity pins and optional ones, in addition to other requirements.

 

[msnowman]

When Nephew was a Cub Scout we looked at things as building blocks. You start with the basics and build up...Bobcat to Wolf to Bear to Webelos and then to Arrow of Light. Things learned early are reinforced at the next level and covered more in depth. The Fitness pin for Webelos sets the building blocks for Personal Fitness as a Boy Scout...ages and stages. Whether its Readyman setting the foundation for the First Aid requirements, of Wolf (3c - show what to do for a small cut) setting the stage for Readyman or Wolves learning to tie their shoes as an arrow elective before moving on to square knots in Bear and two half hitch in Webelos and timber hitch in Boy Scouts, things build on each other.

 

IMHO

Michelle

CM - P102

[anarchist]

Great posts all,

 

ItsMe seems to be distressed that what we ask of 10 year olds needs to be ...I don't know tougher...earlier in another post it was needed to be "more fun"... with in reason ItsMe, you can introduce the Webs to more...you just can't "require" it for program rank...If your boys want to do more...and parents don't object... go for it! But I think SWScouter and molscouter are leading you correctly...lots of crossover between activities (pins) and Boy Scout ranks...just in understandably more areas...remember WEBELOS is a transition to Boys Scouts and that takes nothing from either program.

Do you use the program helps in your Pack???

They can help with ideas and excitment.

anarchist

[Its Me]

Yea I am on rant. Better here I suppose.

 

I am looking at the Webelos program and it just looks too academic. The kids that really enjoy the material are the academic over achievers. My boy likes it, his best bud likes it and another kid really likes it. Two of these kids are in their schools gifted program and the third has applied for his own patent.

 

I just don't want to waste my child's or mine time teaching academics while waiting to join a Boy Scout troop. Make it exciting! Ok I can make paint drying exciting if I have to. But is that the best use of time?

 

Neither in this thread nor in the other thread did someone make a definitive argument that the program is exactly what our boys need. Nor that they aren't saving the cool stuff for scouting. To paraphrase what has been represented in this thread, the Webelos program is meant to prepare them for Boy scouts.

 

So I will get a half hearted nod that the program is academic heavy, and I get that its a training time for the Boy Scouts, but no one but me, seems to think that combined these two themes equate to make for a less than stellar program.

 

Could it be that the Webelos program itself is the reason for the high attrition rate between the two scouting divisions?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Torveaux]

I'm a Webelos I den leader.

 

While some of the stuff is academic in nature, much of it is hands on as well. What I try to do is mix and match parts of the academic type requirements with some of the athletic/outdoors requirements.

 

I see the opposite problem (Webelos becoming too much like Scouts) with Patrols and the Tan shirts. (among other things) It seems that most of the focus of the 'powers-that-be' is to find a good Troop to join, rather than to enjoy Webelos for its own merits.

 

I do agree that Fitness is not a good name for the Activity Badge. (the others are more related to the person...Aquanaut, Readyman, etc.) Why not Healthyman? Check out Athlete.

[Bob White]

It's ME

 

In what year were the Tenderfoot requirements you site taken from the Webelos program and put into the Boy Scout Program?

 

 

[anarchist]

Its Me,

 

ARRRGGGGHHH!

Please! How can teaching academics be a waste of time? You don't really want to dumb down our kids, do you? With knowledge more is better! And, if a professional educater has already done a great job and you find you boys already know the material...let them know how proud and surprised you are that they are so smart(they will like that!) and then move on up! Better than feeling like you are wasting your time(that's my rant)....

 

You are just "itching" to get to Boys Scouts aren't you?! Thought so! Slow down take a deep breath and be patient, zen like,... it will come.

What is it you want to do? camping, white water canoes, rock climbing caving? it will come...in time...

 

...but not if you let your guys know what they are doing is boring...or dumb...or a waste of your and their time...they will turn off and drop out...so perhaps to answer the answer to your last question is... It is not the program but the way the program leaders present it that is responcible for the large drop rate between Webs and Boy Scouting?

 

A note here: Our troop recruits from three packs-

two very large packs and one small pack..."Webelos to Boyscout" retention in the small pack has been nearly 100% for the last 7 or 8 years...and Web II den leaders almost always cross with their boys and become ASM's.

Retention/crossover rates from the large packs is more like 45-60 % and about half of the web leaders have no intention of coming to Boy Scouting with their boys...later (tenderfoot-star)drop out rates for the boys from larger packs also seem to be higher though I am still crunching these numbers...(I would be interested in learning of others experience)

 

Now, Its Me...your turn...what would you do differently? what would you like to see in the Webelos program? Fewer activity pins so more "meat" can be in each remaining activity? More of something else or do we just have them do tenderfoot requirements as 9 and 10 year olds and find something else for the Boy Scouts to do? just asking.

anarchist

 

 

 

[EagleBeaver]

Its Me asks: Could it be that the Webelos program itself is the reason for the high attrition rate between the two scouting divisions?

 

I'd give a definite, absolute, emphatic, cheerful 'NO' to that question. There is a progression of age-appropriate activities from Bear to Webelos and from Webelos to Boy Scouts. I also do not believe the Webelos program saves the fun stuff for Boy Scouts. I do believe the level of skills and character challenges in the program are meaningful to boys of Webelos age.

 

I think a bigger reason for attrition is parents and pack leaders not understanding that Cub Scouts is a preparatory program for Boy Scouts. Instead of telling scouts things like "almost done with Webelos", saying "almost ready for Boy Scouts" could be a significant mind change.

 

Our den of 11 scouts ate up the Webelos program and said it was the best part of Cub Scouts. But, we camped, hiked, built fires, did first aid, went places, and did things. We did not sit with the book giving answers to questions just to get an advancement checked off, which can happen.

 

Since the aims of scouting are Character, Citizenship, and Fitness it makes sense to me that the Fitness and Citizenship activity badges are mandatory for earning the Webelos rank badge. Other than those two, there are 18 other optional activity badges that the scouts can earn. A den sure doesn't need to do ALL the badges. Most of them are active, fun requirements but some (such as Scholar and Family Member) may need some imagination to make them interesting.

 

Scout On

 

[Its Me]

mn_scout wrote

"Cub Scouts is a preparatory program for Boy Scouts."

 

AAAAAAAAAHHHHHHH! scratch nails on the blackboard!

 

Anarchist you are right. Once I came back from wood badge I was so impressed with the patrol method that I wanted my boys to have that experience sooner. What the boys are learning in Webelos seems like fluff compared to the personal growth potential available in Boy Scouts. In addition a boy can join boy scouts without ever having been a cub scout.

 

 

(This message has been edited by Its Me)

[anarchist]

Its Me,

 

there is nothing I know of that says your Webs can't be a patrol...My Web IIs all switched from being den 4 to being the "shark patrol"...I started them with a rotating patrol leader and started on camp cooking and had several family campouts...

 

we were blessed with a real good group of parents who were not afraid of the outdoors...one of the best times the parents had (and they still tell me about it), was the first time their boys cooked a complete dinner for all the adults...start to finish including clean-up...dads (and one mom) all just sat around while my boys did it all...with me hovering in the background...

TEACH and PLAY!

We hiked, camped, went fishing,learned to clean and cook the fish we caught, started flat water canoeing (7 of eight parents had canoes by the end of WebII year! A great two years, now four of the eight boys are on their way to eagle, two moved away (one is still in scouting) one dropped out, he, literally, became deathly allergic to leaf mold and poison ivy...actually ended up in the hospital after a camping trip with his dad....the last succumbed to the "Fumes"...

 

Don't push too hard, but using your group as guides, give them what they need...and always remember the program is for them not us...

we can do 'greater' things on our own....

anarchist

[charle9997]

I agree with "Its me". Some of the Webelos badge requirements are too academic. In addition, too many badge requirements involve teaching the boys values that they should be learning at home and in church. Academics and morals are important in our kids lives but is that really what Scouts is all about? Our kids want to do fun things at Den and Pack meetings. The last thing they want is more teaching, preaching, and homework.

 

That said, I'd like to pose a question to the forum. In order to earn an activity badge, is it OK for a Den Leader to deviate from the specific badge requirements in the Webelos handbook, as long as the intent of the activity badge requirements are met? I found a number of badge requirements are similar to activities my Scouts completed as Bears and Wolves. Why can't I substitute new activities for those that the Scouts have already done in lower ranks?

[SWScouter]

charle9997,

 

Will you give an example of how you may want to deviate from the requirements.

 

My gut reaction is that no, you shouldn't because we shouldn't add nor subtract from the requirements. However, what you mean by "deviate" may not really be doing that.

 

SWScouter

[Its Me]

 

The Webelos fitness program seems to focus on the bad behavoir within for example tobacco use, drugs, alcohol and overeating. Its more of a morality approach to fitness, "you are a sinner if...". I would rather have a more positive approach to fitness education.

 

Replace with:

Exercise will increase your heart rate which will improve your health because.....

Take your pulse at rest then play a game of soccer/basketball/tag for 20 minutes, then take your pulse. What changed? why?

Do push-up every other day for two weeks, Could you do more at the first time or last why?

 

The link below is as close as I could get to what i would include in the program. I was orginally looking for the requirments for 4th grade, Presidential and National fitness requiremnets but google failed me.

 

 

http://www.uen.org/core/core.do?courseNum=7540