REALLY NEED ADVICE

[kittle]

I really need to vent and get advice from a neutral group. Please read this with the knowledge that my fealings are really hurt and I am sitting hear about ready to cry as I type.

 

Our Pack had our first Pack campout last night, at least that is what I thougt it was going to be. Tueday, one of the leaders informed me that his den was going to have a sleepover at his houseinstead (this is our Bear den, 2 boys). Then last night I find out one of the Webelos is going to stay at his house too. Then this morning when they came up to have breakfast, I found out that another Webelos that I thought has went home had really went and stayed at this other leaders house. I was left with 2 kids and the campout and one them decided that he wasn't going to sleep on the ground. So he went home and slept and his mother brought him back this morning. That made 5 people left at the campout. Three of which were me and my two sons (neither of which are in Cub Scouts).

 

Now that I have vented, I have a couple of questions:

 

1. Are Cubs and/or Webelos have to have adult/parent to camp with them?

 

2. If so, does this hold true for any campout. Or can it be up to the Cubmaster.

 

Kittle

[Bob White]

Hi kittle, this is nothing that can be done about this last event, but you can better prepare for the next one.

 

First, everyone needs to go get trained in their positions and in Youth Protection. THERE IS NO DEN CAMPING IN CUB SCOUTS, except for Webelos. There is only Family camping as a Pack, and every Cub must have a parent or LEGAL guardisn in attendance. If your Den leader had a bunch of cubs at his or her home OVERNIGHT without their parent or guardian present then you need to inform the council's Scout Executive before word gets to him or her from a concerned parent. This could be a very serious problem.

 

Next, once everyone knows their job and the rules, next time you plan a family campout you need to make sure that everyone is on board and that all the concerns of the families are met, evidently they had some hesitations going camping with the current plan.

 

But trained leaders is your first step. After they have been informed of the YP regulations if any leader does not follow them again you need to repot them to the SE. do not take youth protection procedures lightly.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[madkins007]

Bob White's points are right on.

 

One of the issues involved in Cub's Family Camping is who is responsible? If something goes wrong, who is liable? Who is in charge of any specific youth at any specific time?

 

Family camping may sound like a cop out or something, but it is designed to help make sure ewach boy is safe and watched, and that no leader will end up bearing the wrath of the legal system should something go wrong.

 

Don't forget that the BSA insurace is a 'back up' program AND won't cover you if you are not following BSA policys.

 

Boy Scout group camping works because each youth has been trained in how to do the many jobs needed, and there is a leadership structure in place to help keep everything going well. This structure does not exist in Cub Scouting.

 

 

 

 

However, it sounds like the bigger issue may be communication and coordination within the pack. You may want to discuss the confusion and how to avoid it in the future at an upcoming leadership or committee meeting.

[Prairie_Scouter]

One. Let me agree 100% with Bob White's comments. Right on target.

 

Two. You mentioned that you and your 2 sons are not Cubs yet. This pack sounds pretty, well, screwed up. If you haven't decided to join yet, I might suggest that you look elsewhere, or if your sons have friends in the pack and that's why they're considering joining, follow up with your concerns with the leaders, and ask if they're really supposed to be doing that because, as a pack is supposed to be run, the answer is "no".

[kittle]

 

Everyone in the pack has been trained. None of the parents are going to take issue with the boys being at this leader's house, that is where they chose that they stay. We are a very small Pack in a very small 'village'. There are 4 leaders and 8 boys. My husband and I stayed on as leader and Cubmaster so that they wouldn't have to find new leaders and so that maybe we could help keep the Pack going until our younger son was old enough for scouts (that is 3 years).

 

We, the committee, spent 2 months planning the campout. And I personally tried to get parents to call me back with any concerns that they might have. Noone told me about any problems that they had. I figure that the biggest hesitation that they had was that they like the other leader better. I am not an outgoing person, scouts is the only community program I am involved in other than church. We homeschool our children (not exactly accepted in my area).

 

Ther leader who changed plans at the last minute is the leader who wanted this to be a family campout instead of Webelos campout. It wouldn't have even been as upsetting if they had invited the one boy that actually camped where we had scheduled. If he had wanted to camp in his backyard that would have been fine, but that isn't what they planned.

 

I am just going to have to get over it and move on or step down. If I stepped down, I could help with my older son's troop but, I feal obligated to stay until the end of the year. I can tell the stress is already getting to me physically. Between 6 Cub Scout events a month and having to drive to the Troop meeting place (20 miles from home) 7 or 8 times a month, I am stretched a little thin.

 

Thanks for listening.

[theysawyoucomin']

Kittle,

I am in full agreement with Bobwhite and madkins.

 

You must have a BALOO trained person on the camping trip.

 

You jeopardrdized Scouting by doing what you did.

 

If any of the boys had a bad time you can turn them off for their entire youth.

 

Get training ,get help, delegate.

 

All that aside, this summer I planned a Pack Picnic at a NYS State park. $200 usage fee. We knew we had it reserved 6 months in advance.

One den leader Dad has his sons birthday party on the same day. we lose an entire den to this party. An entire den of boys was forced to decide which event to go to.

We had a blast at the picnic.

 

You can lead a horse to water...but can't make him drink.

Plan what the boy's would like to see and don't get frustrated about who shows up.

 

I was upset once and my Cubmaster coined :

 

McKnight's Maxim: I'm having fun ...

the kids are having fun...

What the heck is your problem?

 

Get trainig and try again! Observe the rules. Get some parents to help.

 

I need to ask:

What is your position in the Pack?

 

Are you trained for that position?

 

 

 

How many Scouts?

 

Why are your sons not in the Pack?

[madkins007]

Kittle- you do sound a little frayed around the edges. I hope things get better.

 

It still sounds like there is something going on other than the different activities. With so few people, communication may not be the key point, but something else seems to be going on.

 

I always taught leaders in Scouting that our key #1 rule was KISMIF- Keep It Simple Make It Fun. If the leaders ain't having fun, ain't no one having fun!

 

What has to happen here to make it fun for you again? Other parents stepping up to take over? Use the next couple months to see who you think can do it, then ask them to step up. Let them serve as Assistant whatever for a few months to get trained (both official and on the job training), then to take over at some point (Feb, at B&G?) while you stand nearby to offer support and help them find and train their own assistant.

 

Would a stronger committee or better annual planning help you enjoy yourself more? It would probably help others as well. There are things you can do to either make or help this happen.

 

Identify this issue for yourself and your husband, and try to get back ot loving the program!

 

(One thought- maybe one of you is the Cub parent, and the other is the Scout parent- that way neither of you has a super heavy schedule and you help 2 units for the price of one!)

 

 

[ScoutNut]

To directly answer your questions about parents on campouts - YES parent(s) should attend. NO - It is not optional or at the discretion of the CM.

 

Per the Guide To Safe Scouting, EVERY scout (Tiger, Wolf, Bear or Webelos) should be under the supervision of a parent, guardian or a parent approved adult.

 

 

"Our Pack had our first Pack campout last night, at least that is what I thougt it was going to be."

 

"Ther leader who changed plans at the last minute is the leader who wanted this to be a family campout instead of Webelos campout."

 

Which was it a Pack Campout or a Webelos Campout?

 

If it was a Pack campout it should have been organized by a BALOO trained leader who should also have been in attendance. If it was a Webelos Den Campout then it was for Webelos Scouts, their Den Leaders (you) & their parent/guardian/parent approved adult ONLY. Either way, the Bear Den should NOT have been allowed to have a "Den Sleepover" on their own.

 

It sounds like you might have a power struggle going on if what this leader did was purposefully "siphon" off kids from your campout (if it was supposed to be a Webelos only one) in order to create a Pack campout.

 

If, as you say, everyone is trained, then they should all know better than to pull this kind of thing. At your next committee meeting you need to let them know, in no uncertain terms, that what they did was against all BSA regulations & if something had happened at this event, BSA insurance would NOT have covered it, the LEADER (& possibly the Pack) would have been completely libel.

 

There are 365 days in a year. Surely the Pack could plan for 2 camping trips. Perhaps this Bear Leader could take BALOO training and do it correctly next time.

 

[Novice_Cubmaster]

Kittle,

 

While I wont discount the points made about training and YP, that's not the problem.

The problem is the Bear den leader is running amok and disrupting planned events.

 

Even if no rules were violated, you can't have a leader changing things around like he did.

 

This is a pack leadership problem and I'd suggest getting all the leaders and committee members together and explaining why this isn't the way a pack should work. BUT... don't fail to bring up that a number of rules were broken, too.

 

Chances are, if unchecked, this den leader will make things even more difficult when his den hits Webelos rank.

 

Our pack had a Web2 leader that "marched to the beat of his own drummer". While he wasn't disruptive to the pack as a whole, it took extra measures from some of the other pack leaders to make sure HIS Webelos got their AOL and crossed over as planned.

 

Nip it in the bud. And if the rest of the pack leadership doesn't back you, then take it as a "vote of no confidence" and let them elect a new Cubmaster more to their liking.

 

Scouting takes hard work, but it should not be a painful ordeal. You can't put on a good program if you're not enjoying it too.

 

Good luck and (seriously) happy scouting!

Novice Cubmaster

[kittle]

First, I want to thank everyone for their input. It has helped me to think about this and put a good perspective on it. It is nice to be able to come here and discuss without fear of hurting the other person's feelings. I like this other leader.

I found an online version of Guide To Safe Scouting. I am going to print up the portion that concerns Cub Scout camping and take it to the next committee meeting. I am also going to call one of the district trainers tommorrow and ask him about this. He also happens to be a member of our charter organization. He has been after me for a year to take Boy Scout leader training even though I am not a registered Boy Scout leader and may never be.

Now I am going to take a minute and answer a few of the questions:

uz2bnowl, My position in the pack is Webelos leader and yes, I am trained for that position. There are 10 boys in the Pack. My sons aren't in the Pack because 1 is too old (11 and in a Boy Scout Troop) and the other is 4. Since we have had a hard time getting parent volunteers, I was planning on sticking around and helping until my younger son was old enough for Scouts.

madkins007, I am not sure what it would take to make it fun for me, but I like your idea of letting one of them take over. I really think that would help.

ScoutNut, I was supposes to be a Pack campout, then the committe decided it should be a Webelos campout (which I as the Webelos leader didn't like because  I hadn't gotten to have a say in where it was going to be held), and then they decided it should be a Pack campout again so that we could get more parents involved.

Novice_Cubmaster, When this leader's den hits Webelos next year, I am going to let him take over the second year Webelos also. 

I have really enjoyed Scouting and our involvement in it. But at times like this, I'm not sure it is worth it.

Kittle

[ScoutNut]

"I was supposes to be a Pack campout, then the committee decided it should be a Webelos campout (which I as the Webelos leader didn't like because I hadn't gotten to have a say in where it was going to be held), and then they decided it should be a Pack campout again so that we could get more parents involved."

 

Wow Kittle, all I can say is I am NOT impressed by your committee. What a mess. Maybe you can get the District Trainer to talk to them at your committee meeting.

 

BTW - You don't have to be registered in a BS Troop to take the training. The more training we have the better we can deliver the program.

[Cubmaster Jerry]

Novice CM hit the nail on the head. This is a big Committee leadership problem. Everyone has to be on the same page.

 

At your next meeting, find out why plans were changed. If you get answers that sound like excuses, then there are probably deeper issues within the Pack Committee. If that is the case, it may be uncomfortable, but those need to be worked out.