Resolving a fight between scouts

[LadyJay]

We have a Webelos II Scout who is ADHD. He is on medication. His home life is rough by any standards. He lives with his mom , his dad is around sometimes when he is not in jail. His mother is unable to control him, he actually behaves better when she isn't around.

 

The other boys in the den never really liked him when he joined. Once, one ever cheered that he was sick and not coming to the den meeting that week, which the den leader prompting informed them that it was not scout like and asked why he didn't like him. He answered he didn't know why.

 

The plot thickens...

 

We all went to Webelos Resident camp this summer and there was incident.

 

It was hot (real hot) and no one had slept well the first night. During an event some of the boys started playing in the drinking water. I heard someone tell them to stop wasting the water. But before they did one of the scouts poured water on this kid (which I now know he had done too).

 

What I saw when I turned around was one scout in a karate stance facing this kid and one complaining that this kid spit on him. I intervened and removed karate kid from the area. Then I notice still another boy holding his neck. I asked him what was wrong, he said this kid choked him, and he admitted to doing.

 

While taking this kid to the the den leader and the other to his mother. This kid threatened to hit me with a stick. I told him I wasn't afraid of him, and he never did try to hit me.

 

The den leader, mother, and I talked with these two and apologies were made. We had no furter incidents that day.

 

The next morning when I awoke the mother of the scout told me that this kid had hit karate kid and spit at another boy. Now he was looking for something to hit them with. He returned with stick in hand and I hollered across to him, at which he dropped it and ran to his tent. I followed him, and I asked him what was going on. He told me that karate was cussing at him and calling him names and all he could think of was hitting him. I talked with him about getting adults when being teased before he made the problem worse by hitting. We had no furter problems for the rest of the weekend.

 

When we returned we talked with the mom of this scout.

 

I thought this was resolved until the parents of the karate kid approached me and den leader and asked if this kid will be coming back to which we said yes. Karate kids parents say he says he is scared to death of him.

 

The committee is now deciding that we should kick him out for fighting. But I think the other kids are partly responsible, too, for verbally assaulting him and teasing him. They all made some bad choices during this incident.

 

I feel like the committee is rushing into this for a first time offense that resulted in no injuries. And we should make this an opportunity to learn from thier mistakes and make better choices in the future. What do you guys think?

 

Also there is some confusion over whom we should have reported this too? At the time? After? We talked to the parents of the scouts in the fight (one of which was there) and thought it was resolved but the committee said we should have made it a prority to inform them in case anyone asked about it. By the way, we don't have any written policy on this, they just decided after they found out about the fight.

[jr56]

Sounds like you are attempting to do all the right things. You attempt to teach the kids appropriate behavior, and keep the parents informed as much as possible. Unfortunately, some parents insist on making things difficult. You are right, whenever problems occur there is always two sides to the story. Kicking the kid out of the pack after one minor? incident seems a little extreme. I see all kids as a work in progress, and it is the purpose of the scouting program to see that this work has a chance to be successfully completed. If it gets to the point where this kids actions are endangering the welfare of other youth, or he is destoying the scouting experience for everyone else, then he would have to go. But from what you have relayed in your post, this situation in my opinion has not reached that point yet.

 

 

[Prairie_Scouter]

I agree with jr56. Seems like you're doing the right things. Also seems like the pack committee is overreacting at this point.

 

If the ADHD Scout is the instigator of a problem on several occasions, you should have the parent attend pack functions, including meetings. You are not a babysitter, and most likely not a specialist with special needs kids. If you think that the boy is doing his best, and the problem is mostly the other Scouts response to him, then it is THEIR problem, not his. Your committee shouldn't remove a Scout because the others don't happen to like that he's different. On the other hand, if he is difficult to control to the point of being disruptive, and the parents can't do so either even if they attend pack events, then you have to consider the best interests of the unit at some point.

 

My own den policy when I was in Cub Scouts was that any Scout who started a fight had his parents called and was sent home. In 4 years, it happened once.

 

 

[SeattlePioneer]

In economics, there is an idea that bad money drives good money out of circulation.

 

 

My experience is that there is a similar dynamic in Scouting. Bad boys can drive good boys out of a Pack or Troop. Several boys, and often the best boys.

 

Think carefully about whether you are prepared to let that happen. When the boys cheer an absent and ill Scout, you have all the signs.

 

Scouting isn't for all boys. And keeping the worst while leaving the best to leave is a poor policy, in my own experience.

 

 

 

Seattle Pioneer

[LadyJay]

SeattlePioneer - This scout is not a "bad kid", he is however different. Until this incident at camp, we never saw him act up or be mean to anyone in the den.

 

All - This is not a kid who is always making trouble, just a kid that never seem to fit in with the others. He has always been polite and attentive during other outings and events. Better behaved than some of the others.

 

One of the adults said, if he doesn't fit in then what is he learning from cub scouting when he is always an outsider.

 

I think this kid is probably an outsider at school and his home life is rough too. I just don't feel like it is appropriate action to kick him out on his first offense that was certainly not unprovoked.

[DonM]

While one role of scouting is to teach boys to manage agression and conflict, we also have a responcibility to insure that the program is safe for all scouts. Physical violence is equally prohibitted by the Guide to Safe Scouting. Also, I wouldn't call hitting, choking, and threatening scouts and adults with sticks minor.

 

The Cubmaster and Committee Chair need to work with the parent to establish a management plan, though, before kicking the scout out (again, by the G2SS). Had he received his medication in the morning he went after the other scout? Are den meetings in the evenings after meds have worn off? It may be possible to improve the situation working together.

 

Still, the parent should be made to understand that, if the child continues to be disruptive and violent, that it may be necessary to remove him from the pack.

 

DonM

[DonM]

I forgot to mention that being verbally abusive is also prohibited. The scouts doing the teasing also should be counseled and, if their ongoing behavior warrants, the parents brought in.

 

DonM

[jens3sons]

I also agree with DonM...verbal abuse is NOT appropriate either, and I have a little "tweaking of a suggestion to go along with what has already been stated. I would have a parent/guardian of the fighting (special needs) kid attend all pack and den functions for a while, however, I would also suggest having the boys who have been verbally abusive to this boy, their parents attend as well. With the taunting kids' parents in attendance, chances are that the boys will be less likely to verbally abuse the special needs kid. Also I would try and find some "special" quality, talent or hobby special needs kid has and have him present it to the den and maybe the other kids will find something in common with him.

 

Please keep us informed on this situation...it is a great learning experience for us on committees prior to us learning the "hard" way.

 

Jens3sons

[ScoutingEMT]

My family (and ME, at one point) has been the the situation of the special needs scout.

 

My initial, gut reaction is DO NOT KICK HIM OUT. It sounds like the group egged each other on to do something... and the scout gave them the "show" they wanted. I have no doubt that "karate kid" is scared.. but maybe not of the special needs kid, but what the group will pressure him into next?

 

kicking the special needs scout out will not accomplish much... the group of scouts will probably still fight.. the ADHD kid is not "the whole problem" maybe part of the problem... but it takes two to tango...

 

This is likely the ADHD kid's only social interaction other than school and perhaps church.

 

Talk with the scout's parent (assuming only Mom at the moment). See if parent can come to all activities... I've seen it done where a scout's father had to be present at all troop functions his son attended, because of similar issues. If Mom can't, or isn't the right person... maybe an uncle or other adult he will listen to. Talk with the school folks and Mom.... the child may benifet from having some form of aide.... one with the right training and an open mind might enjoy helping the child at scout meetings......

 

Jon

[Cubmaster Mike]

Remember we're dealing with 9-10 year olds here, not older scouts. I read your post and thought it was a story about one of our boys at first. You should sit down with the den, make sure that they all know that what happened was wrong and if it happens again what will be the consequences. Kicking somone out on the this first incident is not the way to go. I believe that letting ALL parties know that repeated bad behavior will result in progressive discipline and ultimately expulsion is a better route to go.

[Tami the Mom]

I think kicking him out is not the way to go. All you are really teaching the other kids is that if they don't like someone, they can dog him out and set him up so that he gets kicked out. That's loading a powder keg you can't control. Better to sit down with the whole group of them, ADHD kid included, and let them talk it out. Chances are ADHD kid won't say a lot or he will get defensive. Let him know that he can choose to be part of the group, even if it means he has to put every ounce of his focus into cooperating, or he can choose to leave.

 

You said his mother being around only makes him worse. I can believe that. We've had *parentally challenged* boys in our pack before. And my daughter is ADHD, plus a host of other behavioral challenges. Parents of kids like these need to be educated and focussed on their kid in order to help. My own sweet dh tends to set off our daughter rather than calm her. I would suggest having a talk with her and seeing what she suggests for keeping him calm during meetings.

 

If the parents of the other kids insist this boy be thrown out, I would remind them that there are, in fact, THREE sides to every story- *my kid*, *your kid*, and the truth. If someone is going to be kicked out for fighting- they all should. Of course, my opinion.

[MollieDuke]

I had this problem, sort of, in the pack I used to be CC of several years ago. We had a boy whose parents came to us and said they wanted to sign their boy up, however, he was ADHD with violence. They said they never left their son alone and he had a special "helper" with him at school. They were in the process of trying to find help for their son, and seemed like they were good with him. We made the provision that one of them had to be with him at all times, and he was admitted to the Pack. We had a few little things happen, fixed immediately by the parents of the boy. Eventually, he took to the leader like his parents, and it took the parents out of the mix for the rest of his time in cubs. In fact, he received the AOL after much much work on his part. He really wanted it so much.

 

I really believe that consistency is KEY in ADHD, and the research supports that, but if your boy's homelife is one big mess, then there is no consistency. In this case, I think you will have to require his parent/guardian to be in attendance for each and every function and to be basically "on top" of the situation at all times.

 

We are all volunteers here, and have not got the training to really accurately deal with "special" children. I don't think the boys that did the teasing should get off the hook and should be taken to task for their involvement, but for this one child, I think the parent/guardian should be present and active at all times. It worked for us.

MollieD