Crossing Over - Which Troop to Join?

[Cubmaster Jerry]

Ok, here is something I struggle with each year. As a Pack and as a Webelos 2 Den leader, should we promote the idea of "shopping" around for the best Troop to our Webelos 2 Scouts and their parents? I have rarely, if at all, strayed from the steadfast answer of NO. I believe that the Cub Pack should feed only into its sister Troop. This had been an uphill battle for me as the Sister Troop for the Pack I was in up until last year had a difficult time retaining boys because of lack of quality leaders and lack of a quality program. That Troop is at least 8 yrs old, maybe older. It has had a (my) feeder Pack for at least that long. My Pack graduated, on average, 6-8 boys per year. Yet, the Troop membership level remains at about 15 boys or so. Some of the boys in my Pack moved into that Troop and many of those dropped out. Many went to another Troop in the area. As a gauge of how good their program is, they promoted their first Star scout just two years ago.

 

I certainly understand the desire - no, the need for the boys to be in a quality program. However, as a leader I also understand what it takes to make a good program. My initial response to those who state they didn't want to move into our sister Troop because it is a poor program or has poor leadership is "How can you help make it better?" Working to improve a Troop is better than abandoning it.

 

One of the problems I see with my argument is the fact that many of the "good" leaders at the Pack level don't often want to be as involved at the Troop level. Therefore the effort to make changes to a struggling Troop is more than what it would take to join a successful one.

 

But where does that leave the struggling Troop? Still struggling, that's where. And then who suffers? That's right. Those boys who are registered to that Troop. My argument can be used for those who wish to leave struggling Packs as well. Now, I am not saying that we all should see ourselves as the savior for struggling programs but we do have it in our power to make a program better rather than see it waste away. And, quite often, it only takes one or two people to turn it around.

 

Your thoughts?

Jerry

[frank10]

Setting aside the good troop vs. not so good troop part of your post I'll address the question of shopping around....

 

No one troop fits all boys. We have four very good troops in town. Ours is a bit laid back. We understand that a scout has other commitments in his life other than scouting and work with the sports players, band members, church goers amd that works for our scouts.

 

Another troop in town is intended for SCOUTS only. If you can't make every camp out, every meeting and are not on a direct path to eagle, your not in the right place. Some boys need this structure.

 

Third troop is more into family camping than I can handle.

 

Fourth troop is at the far end of town.

 

Each troop meets on a direrent night. some stay local while others travel. There are a number of reasons to pick one troop over another and the reasons may be diferent for each scout/family. Let them shop and pick a program that they fit into.

[ScoutNut]

"should we promote the idea of "shopping" around for the best Troop to our Webelos 2 Scouts and their parents?"

 

Yes - For all of the reasons given by Wingnut.

 

If a boy and his family "shops around" for a Troop they like, the boy is more likely to stay in that Troop & in Scouting. If their Cub leaders force them to join a Troop that they do not feel comfortable in and that is not a decent fit for the boy, the boy will most likely drop out of Scouts by the end of the first year. Then you will have lost a boy to Scouting completely.

 

[SemperParatus]

I am a fan of shopping, although you never really know what you are buying into until you have a few months under your belt. Plus, many scouts and their parents don't really know what they are looking for anyway. Typically, its a matter of where their friends are going or if the CM/DL recommends a particular troop. If I were in your shoes I would probably roll up my sleeves a bit and do some digging. Start investigating the troops in your area, speak with the SMs and other leaders, attend some meetings and events to see how the different troops function. I would start with your brother-troop since your impression of them seems based only on outward appearances (membership/advancement). If your brother troop is sponsored by the same CO and meets at the same place, then I think you have the makings for formulating a stronger tie that could potentially build up both programs. If the affiliation is not so close (only a habit of sending boys there) then I think it may be easier to sever ties and start sending boys elsewhere to look. I suppose this dilemma is hitting closer to home as you are seeing firsthand what is at stake for your own boys. Good luck.

[madkins007]

CM Jerry- our pack was in almost the EXACT same situation, feeding into a dying troop.

 

Our 'official pack policy' was that we encouraged Cubs to join our sister, but that it was the FAMILIES decision, not ours to make.

 

We gave the sister troop every opportunity to 'sell itself' to us- inviting den chiefs, trying to arrange several inter-unit programs, etc. and the only troop we visited ON PACK TIME was our sister. We also met with the leaders to dioscuss our concerns and see what we could do to help without hurting ourselves.

 

On the other hand, we gave parents a list of other local troops based on where the family lived, etc. and told them that they were always free to join any troop they wished- that it was more important to us that they continued in Scouting than that they joined any specific troop.

 

Adult leadership is certainly a key, and we saw this as well- most DLs, etc. figure they served their time and are less interested in helping in Scouts. However- there are often parents that did not quite 'click' in Cubs but do great in a troop- look for these people and suggest they visit the troop as well!

 

 

As a CM, your hands are already pretty full (unless you have a good replacement in the wings and plan on stepping up yourself soon!) You MAY want to check with the COR and see if they have any bright ideas. You can talk to the DE and commishes as well.

 

 

I applaud your concern, and appreciate the dilemma you see yourself in. Good luck!

[OneHour]

Jerry ... looking at different troop is the way to do it. As indicated above, every troop has its differences. It really depends on the boy and what he is interested! Every year, I advocate the needs to our Webelos Dens to shop around for the 6+ troops in the 7 miles radius. I give them (the boys and the parents) the spill on what to look for, what to ask, and who to ask. The "feeder pack" theory doesn't work in our area since there are so many troops in the general area.

 

My oldest son's case is a great example. We shopped four troops when he was a Webelos. Just as in Wingnut's case:

 

- One troop had 30 active boys, local to our pack, from our first impression, they were chaotic and uncontrolled! (typical observation of a Cub and his parent). No apparent junior leadership (other than a boy who stands up in fron of the room and constantly raise the scout sign). They camp once a month and participate in only car wash as a fundraiser. We both didn't like them. They are the troop that our Pack tends to feed into.

 

- One troop had 80+ active boys, within 7 miles from our home. They are the premier troop. From all appearance, they are boy-lead. The boys did everything with SMs scoping their activities. They had a great fundraiser that earn them $15k a year. They go places, exotic places, Scotland, California, Alaska, etc. and their fundraiser subsidize 75% of the cost! I fell in love with them, but my son did not! Only later did I find out that the boy who was their troop guide for the evening threat them and swore at them! After a year, two boys from our Pack who went with them came back to our current troop. Their mother told me that the boys were prejudiced against because of their nationality! The adult leaders did not do anything about it.

 

- One troop had 24 active boys, local to our pack (has the same number as our pack). They were more under control; however, it happens only when the SM is there. From all appearance, a true adult lead. They camp once a month, had everything that a typical troop would do; however, there were a lot safety issues that I had a problem with. I observed one boy was hog-tying another boy and carried him as such. I didn't like it, but my son did, because of an older boy who took time to sit down with him and talk to him and work with him that day. This troop was a fledging troop running by one man. We got in, along with 22 other Webelos. The new adults contributed to rebuild the troop. The SM retire a year after we got on board. The "new adults" started to implement the BSA troop philosophy. We are now 53 boys strong with a crop of 21 Webelos this past spring.

 

As you indicated, "How can you help make it better?" Working to improve a Troop is better than abandoning it" Sometimes, the troop needs help and new sources of ideas and strengths is the help that they need. From there, a quality program can be built, BUT FIRST AND FOREMOST, it's the boy's decision that's what count! So let the boys decide for themselves, individually or collectively as a whole.

 

1Hour

 

 

[Cubmaster Jerry]

I certainly understand all arguments for promoting "shopping". When I first became a leader, I was pretty adamant that we mandate feeding into our sister Troop. I felt that it was our "duty" as a Pack. A few years later, I had the opportunity see first hand how that Troop was run. I new some of the leaders in that Troop. They had helped make our Pack successful when they were there. I also understood (much more than my wife!) that Boy Scouts is much more hands off than Cub Scouts. However, these leaders were VERY hands off. When they invited the Webelos to their "Welcome to the Troop" camp, they hardly included them in anything. The Boy Scouts often ran wild, a few got injured at various times, bad language and smoking were "witnessed" by the Cubs at camp outs. Troop meetings were often chaotic. Patrol method? They had Patrols but no method.

 

Since then, I still feel that obligation to the sister troop. Perhaps because I know it should be better. But now I am less adamant and recommend shopping.

 

Now, here is another question. Let's say that your sister Troop is a poor one, for whatever reason. Is it typical to pull Den Chiefs from another Troop? I would think this would be appropriate, depending on what the Boy Scouts bring to the Cub meetings.

 

Thanks!

Jerry

[ScoutNut]

If you want Den Chiefs, you get them where you can. You should start with your affiliated Troop and then go on from there.

 

Is someone in your Pack trying to say that Den Chiefs can ONLY come from your affiliated Troop? I guess that means that they don't really want Den Chiefs at all!

[SWScouter]

As a WL for a den crossing over next February, this topic is of interest to me. The pack I volunteer for is chartered by a Catholic church. The church also charters a troop. There are five boys in the den, four are Catholic and the fifth is of a christion faith. My plan at this time is for the den to visit the troop chartered to the same church and another troop also chartered by a Catholic church. I also will visit any other troop a parent suggests we visit.

 

My thoughts on what the boys will end up doing is: They will all cross over to the same troop. One may not continue but if he does, I think he will stick with the same troop as the other boys. My guess is it will be the troop chartered to the same church as the pack.

 

We spent last Sat. through Tues. at a "Webelos Encampment." at a council camp. I can tell that the boys aren't even considering joining different troops. In fact, to my surprise, at the encampment, they decided on their patrol name and yell. They spent quite a lot of time figuring it out and agreeing on it. They still have their den name and yell for close to seven more months yet they are already planning for Boy Scouts. I mentioned that they may have other boys in their patrol but they didn't seem concerned about that happening, they are a den and they will be a patrol.

 

As their WL, I can only offer them the opportunity to visit different troops, but I think it is them, the den, that will decide what to do.

 

SWSCouter

[madkins007]

Den chiefs... I know I've heard that term before, but I am not sure I've ever seen one!

 

Seriously. I've only worked with three den chiefs- in my experience, all were there for the leadership requirement, not to help the den and I had to ask 2 not to come back (upon request of the DL involved).

 

When I worked with a large troop, they had 1 (yes, ONE) Den Chief out of about 100 boys.

 

I know there are logistic issues involved (a second meeting per week, getting there, training- both for the Den Chief AND the DL!), but I am often saddened by the lack of enthusiasm I see for this position.

 

Personally- I'd advertise my need for DCs to my sister troop and other nearby units and figure out what to do with them when and if they showed!

[Cubmaster Jerry]

No, ScoutNut, no one in my Pack is limiting the Den Chief "pool" to our sister troop. It just seems like a natural process - much like feeding them does. However, it seems like it is all a part of a failed system at times.

 

We just had our District Planning meeting. One of the topics discussed was concerning the creation of new units. This of course depends on the location of these units but it would seem like more effort should be placed on supporting weak units rather than creating new ones. There is a Cub Pack that is just starting up near mine. It's close enough for us to pull a few boys a year from this area. The problem with this is that, from what I understand, this is at least the third year in a row that someone has attempted to start a Pack there. Each year the Pack has folded and those boys and parents were left with a bad taste in their mouth for Scouting.

 

I am sure that at the District Level, they see their support is provided through their promotion of training and recruiting - which the implementation of is normally placed on the shoulders of the unit, not the district. Maybe some training in being a salesman would help us at the unit level. The district just wants numbers. The more units there are, the more "successful" they are as a District. However, that says nothing about the state of those units. In fact, as we all know, the District and Council prefer a "hands-off" approach when it comes to dealing with many issues that a unit faces. In my previous Pack/district (that I was in until last year), and which my initial situation is from, I saw Silver epaulettes once a year - at Blue & Gold when they came for their Friends of Scouting sales pitch. Maybe that is not representative of how District Execs and Commissioners should be but being the only District that I have been a part of (before my move) it is what I know.

 

Wouldn't it be beneficial for the District to be more involved in the units? Pushing training, teaching some of the finer points of running a program, suggestions on financing methods, etc? With that new Pack in my area, I have taken upon myself to meet with their new Cubmaster and Committee Chair (who each no nothing about running a program) and go over these exact topics. I have invited them to my early Pack, Den, and Committee meetings so they can get a first-hand idea of what to expect and do. My Unit Commissioner is the one who told me about the new Pack and provided me with the Cubmasters phone number. She has not been in contact with that new Cubmaster since.

 

My new Pack is about 70-75 boys strong at year end. However, this is after about a 40% attrition rate from September levels. This concerns me greatly. Additionally, they lose 1-2 leaders a year for one reason or another. They accept these attrition rates as "normal". That mindset will change with me for sure but surely those at the District level are aware of this come recharter time. Why hasn't anything been done? 40%!!!!

 

I have kind of rambled here, but this all gets back to my original concern about what should be done with struggling units. It just seems that it is all too easy to let them continue to put on a poor program or just die.

 

Jerry

[Cubmaster Mike]

I encourage our Webelos to shop around. And since we live right on the border between two suburban Districts, I encourage them to visit both Districts. I make it a point of setting up several troop visits each year and inviting troops to meet with our Webelos. Some take us up on the offer. Some don't. And there is a real diffrence in the leadership style of those who do and those who don't. I want our graduating Webelos to have the best Scouting experience they can, wherever they can.

 

We have three returning den chiefs and will add a fourth this year. Do they recruit for their own units? Some. Do they add to our program and serve as role models. Absolutely. But it's up to the Den Leaders and the CM to make good use of them. My observation of other den chiefs in packs is that where the DL and CM look upon them as merely an older cub, they fail.

 

CMM