Special dens

[mbscoutmom]

Do packs ever have separate dens for special groups within their pack? For example, boys from Spanish-speaking families, or home-schooling families, or who go to school together? Our pack is chartered by a Catholic Church, so we get kids from private, public, and home schools. We also have a growing Spanish-speaking population here, so dealing with parents who only speak Spanish is becoming a problem.

 

Last year, we added several boys from Spanish-speaking families to my den, but I don't speak Spanish. They all left after a few meetings. I'm wondering if it would have worked better to have them form their own den. (Assuming a couple of the parents would be willing to be leaders.)

 

Also, this year, several homeschooling families are interested in forming their own Tiger den. If they have the leaders to do it, I think this would be great. (Without their own den, they're not likely to join the pack at all.) The only problem I anticipate is if we don't have enough non-homeschooling Tigers to have a separate den. Do you think we'll have a big fuss if we don't allow public or private school kids to join the homeschooler's den?

 

[ScoutNut]

I think that having a separate den for any special group would entirely depend on how many total boys you have at that level. Having a "special" den of 10 boys and a "regular" den of 2 or 3 is not good.

 

You also should try to avoid looking like some boys/families are getting special treatment. You are a Pack too, and all of the boys should be part of that larger "family". The health of the ENTIRE Pack should be of foremost concern to your Committee.

 

IMO, I would try to avoid specialized dens. Scouting is for all boys & they should learn how to interact with other folks. If you have families who are only Spanish speaking, I would sign up some leaders who are bi-lingual.

[Prairie_Scouter]

I guess I don't understand why the homeschooling families need their own den. That MIGHT be ok if there's enough of them to form a normal-sized den, 6-8 kids. That might make their scheduling easier. Otherwise, I'd just look to form dens of the right size, and go from there. But, maybe I'm missing something. Like I said, I don't understand why they think that they have to have their own den.

[SemperParatus]

I have no experience with special dens to answer your good questions. But, in my mind, whatever might keep the boy in scouting should be seriously considered. A special den in the case of language barriers sounds like a good idea. A special den for only homeschoolers seems a bit exclusionary, although it sounds like meeting times may be the issue.

[cajuncody]

I recently met a den of homeschooled Wolves. The reason I remember is it was a unique situation. The school system in our county was out for Veterans Day and we were walking in a parade. This den was from another county that school was in session on that day but since they were homeschooled they were able to make the parade. They didn't have a spot reserved so we invited them to walk with us.

My point being that homeschoolers don't have the rigid schedule of public school kids. They would probably have an easier time with field trips and such. I would have no problem with it in my pack as long as they integrated in with the pack at the appropriate times.

In times of competing after school activities I am all for being flexible in scouts to counter the rigid schedules of sports and such.

Just my $.02

Kristi

[Cubmaster Jerry]

We had only a couple of home schooled boys (brothers) in my Pack and experienced no problems with scheduling or the like. Maybe that was because their mother was one of my most active Den Leaders who eventually became CC. I would tend to lean away from separating home schooled boys from the others simply because of the needed interaction, as ScoutNut mentioned. BUT, like Semp states, if it is a matter of them not joining at all, then I would consider it - but not without a struggle on my part.

[Lynda J]

I think one of the purposes is scouting is exposure to different people. I think that my isolating home schooled, Sanish speaking boys you take that part of scouting away.

I do see a problem with BSA in that they do not truly target Spanish speaking boys.

Two boys left the pack that feeds our troop because though the boys spoke English the parents did not and we could not get spanish language books for them. We contacted National and were told it would be 6-12 weeks before they could get us Wolf or Bear books in Spanish. Sad when every other group is busting rear to print everything is both English and Spanish.

[FScouter]

Maybe the boys could read the book to their parents. There are also ESL classes that can be completed in less time that it takes to order a special language handbook. Just an idea.

[mbscoutmom]

I am a homeschooling mom myself, so I can easily see the advantages of having a den of homeschooled boys, especially for Tigers. "Go-see-its" can be scheduled during the day, and can include the other kids in the family as a school field trip. The family activities can become part of the school day. Besides, homeschooling moms are natural den leaders because of their teaching experience. When I took over as den leader last year, my assistant was amazed at how easily I came up with den meeting plans. It's just like planning a school day, except for 8 boys instead of 1! As far as interacting with others, the den itself provides social interaction for the boys with each other, and they would also be attending pack meetings and other pack activities where all the other dens would be present.

 

Your responses show me that a lot of people won't understand them wanting their own den, so I guess I'd better be ready to do a lot of explaining.

[ScoutNut]

I have no basic problem with a strictly homeschool den. I understand that it would be more convenient for them because they are able to do things during the day. Where I have a problem is when you start losing boys because the homeschool den (or other special den) will not accept them.

 

If you have enough boys for 2 complete dens & both dens understand that if the numbers reduce to a certain level the dens will be combined, then I say fine, go for it. However if you have 1 den which refuses to accept any boys not "like" them then you have a problem.

 

I also am not a big fan of a separate, non-English speaking den. How will this den manage at a Pack meeting? How will the non-English speaking leaders know (or care) what is going on in Committee meetings? How will this den be able to participate with the rest of the dens?

 

We have some families who speak limited English. Their kids help translate, the families do their best to learn & help & the rest of the Pack makes a point to not talk "over" them & to make sure they all feel like a part of the Pack "family".

 

Remember, these are all issues that they must face at school as well. There are no schools in our area that provide non-English only classrooms.

 

[mbscoutmom]

Scoutnut, that's just the attitude I'm afraid I will encounter. Is there a way I could present this so that the special den is not seen as excluding others "not like them"? I want our pack to become stronger and larger by welcoming, and making accomodations for, other groups. If it's not really a homeschooler's den, we won't get them at all. What will the two or three non-homeschooling Tigers do then?

[ScoutNut]

I know of no way to make a den that wants to be exclusive sound like it is not.

 

It seems like you have to make a choice.

 

Either you have an exclusively homeschooled den & loose the boys who are NOT homeschooled.

 

or

 

You have a mixed den and loose the boys who ARE homeschooled.

 

Since it is really your Charter Organizations call, maybe you should run it by them and see what their thoughts on the matter are.

 

You might also suggest to the homeschool group that they consider chartering their own scout unit(s). There are many homeschool groups that do. That is the whole point of the Charter Organization. Charter Orgs manage their units and control their program of activities to support their own goals and objectives.

 

 

[madkins007]

I was on your side until you said "I can easily see the advantages of having a den of homeschooled boys, especially for Tigers. "Go-see-its" can be scheduled during the day, and can include the other kids in the family as a school field trip. The family activities can become part of the school day"

 

Translation (in my mind): 'This group of boys could get to do things the other kids in the pack won't get to do.' It shifts from being a convenience for the parents to an unlevel playing field. It is tough enough to avoid the old 'how come THAT den gets to...' whine in a normal pack.

 

 

 

However, I would look at the problem by asking the question 'how do I provide the best Scout program for the entire pack?'

 

Does it help or hurt the pack to have a Spanish den?

Pros-

- Improved parental involvement and communications

- Sense of community with each other

- Increased membership/retention

- Easier to explain what is going on, relating experiences, etc.

- Helps overcome BSA's weakness in materials, etc.

- Reduces the need for translators, etc.

Cons-

- Creates a certain 'us vs. them' atmosphere that must be guarded against.

- Integration and cross-cultural experiences would be reduced

- Reduces opportunities to learn Spanish

(Continue the list on your own- this is just a start!)

 

MY thinking would be that a seperate Spanish den could be a very good thing as long as steps were taken to make sure it was integrated into the pack otherwise- lots of inter-den activities, for example.

 

 

 

[mbscoutmom]

ScoutNut, I hope that I don't have to choose between losing one group of boys or another. My goal is to build up the pack. Last year our Tiger den started out with 2 boys. We lost one right away, and had only one active Tiger. We let him join in with the Wolf den for den meetings, and his mom had to do all his Tiger achievements with him on her own. For this year I know of one non-homeschooling boy who's interested in Tigers, but I'm hoping he'll bring his friends from school. We're certainly going to do everything we can to get them interested.

 

I just found out that we have 7 homeschooled boys interested in Tigers. Isn't that just the right number for a den? I don't have to tell anyone that they're being excluded from this den--just that it's full. For the other dens, there are only 2-3 homeschooled boys each, so I'm encouraging them to join our existing dens.

[ManassasEagle]

mbmom- You mention that you have 7 homeschoolers interested in Tigers. Earlier, you mention 2-3 non-homeschoolers. Not sure if they're all tigers this year or not but it really doesn't matter, let's, for purposes of example, assume that they are. Now what do you propose to do? Yes, 7 is within the "ideal" size range of 6-8 so you could have your exclusive homeschool den but what about the 2 or 3 non-homeschoolers? Their den would be too small. The "right" thing to do would be to have 2 dens of 5 Tigers each with a mix of homeschoolers and non-homeschoolers.

 

If, as you seem to imply earlier, mixing those "unworthy" non-homeschoolers in with the homeschoolers would cause some of the homeschoolers to drop out, I think you're better off without them. They sound more concerned that they be able to do their "special" things than learn how to integrate into a community as a whole. Part of Scouting is being a good citizen and that includes learning how to meaningfully interact with all sorts of people outside of your particular socio-economic group.