One Cub has way too many electives/Beltloops

[BelieveinScouts]

Hello all,

 

We introduced our Wolves to the Academic and Sports Program this year. Our boys really took off on it and earned a bunch of Beltloops. My problem is that I have one parent that I believe is signing off on things her son didn't really do. For example, my most devoted Scouts who worked really hard throughout the year, earned about 15 belt loops and four pins. This one boy's mother turned in her spreadsheet with 18 Belt loops and 18 pins marked! I was letting the parents use a spread sheet page to keep track, but it doesn't list the whole requirement. I then copied the full requirements pages from the actual workbook and passed them out to all the parents that had turned in for belt loops. This parent again turned in paperwork saying that her son had done 18 belt loops and 18 pins. She also turned in that he had done 84 electives. You have to understand that we were a very busy den this year. My boys not only earned their Wolf Badges, but their 75th Anniversary Badges, as well as their Emergency Preparedness awards. We went on 28 field trips. This young man doesn't make half the meetings, and not many of the field trips. When I questioned his Mom she said that we just didn't have that much to this year. Mine, and several other of the mothers mouths almost hit the floor. The rest of us felt like we were running around like chickens with our heads cut off. Rather than call her an outright liar, I went ahead and purchased the Belt loops and pins. I was keeping track on our website and was going to give out a trophy at the end of the year to the leader, but I just didn't feel like it was right to do so then. Thankfully I had kept the Trophy plans to myself. When I've questioned the Scout on some of the belt loops it's clear to me that he doesn't know what I'm talking about. My problem is this. Some of my hard working, involved Moms, that won't sign off on something unless their son has truly done it, are ready to kill this other Mom. LOL How do I handle this? I've thought of making up three questions to go along with every Belt loop to test the Scouts knowledge. What do you think? How do I handle this one? Thanks for all your advice.

[cubbingcarol]

It is sad that adults have to muck up a good thing. I'm sorry but I'm almost sure you can't add requirements such as your questions, I may be wrong but I don't think so. You have to accept her word that he completed the requirements as all but the BB and Archery can be done in the home setting.

 

Carol

[madkins007]

1. We always took the word of the parents... but I have to admit that there were a couple parents we 'talked to'. Assuming that the parent simply did not quite understand how this works, we have explained that the number of badges seems excessive, and what the purpose of the badge and self-check idea were. We had a couple parents say something along the lines of 'oh, I did not quite understand' and then resubmit a different log. Giving the parent a graceful way to save face really helps.

 

We discussed that if the check points really WERE done, that the Scout would recall doing it (without ever saying we planned on checking). We discussed that if the requirement asked for something to be built or a log to be kept, it really ought to be available to share with the den or at a pack hobby show. We would point out that 'learning' is a part of the program- just knowing how to do something for the sake of repeating it back to get the check off did not meet the spirit of the electives. Finally, we would mention that things done for one requirement don't usually count towards another.

 

2. We only purchased the loops and pins that we worked on as a group. If a family worked on other items, they were absolutely welcome to purchase the recognition themselves. This was written into our policies from early on to save money and encourage den activities.

[Torveaux]

You have to be careful in this area.

 

I had a boy that said he had done 12 loops worth of stuff.

 

At one meeting his dad came with him and brought their own copy of the requirements. The first one he claimed to have completed required a poster or other display at a den or pack meeting. It was obvious that he had not finished all of the requirements. I suggested that the father 'review' the list with his son. Unfortunately, the boy dropped out at the end of the year. I don't know if the loops thing was a factor, but I am sure that it didn't help.

 

The lesson I learned was that loops are a good thing for individual parents to use to motivate their sons to explore new things and delve a little deeper into things they already enjoy. The other parents need to understand that the expectations are different for each boy. 'Explain the rules of ___' can be very subjective. I know my boy and how much detail he needs to push himself. If a parent tells me the boy did the requirements, I just take a deep breath and order the loop. As for additional rewards, I think the example of 'BelieveinScouts' shows that perhaps getting additional awards for quantity may be counter-productive.

 

The key for the 'other' parents (and their kids) is for them to learn that it is the experience that is important, not the loop.

[Prairie_Scouter]

In the end, you have to take the word of the parents, I think. You're not allowed to add your own requirements, so that won't work. I can see someone getting a boatload of beltloops; they are pretty easy to get, but the pins are another story; some of those are quite difficult and require some time. You might, as some other have said, figure out some facesaving way to question the parents, but in the end, you have to take their word for it, I think.

[Lynda J]

Had a kid like this in my Wolf den. I knew he hadn't done half of them. So I decided that since he had finished a couple of the loops and pens that the other boys hadn't earned that I would let him "help" the other boys earn theirs.

Guess what. He didn't know the simplest part of the loops. I invited his mother to come to the meeting that night. According to her he had "just finished" the astromony loop. She and I went outside and talked. I explained that we have to teach our children to be truthful. I also explained that it was important for him to understand what he was learning and that if he didn't really do the work she was cheating him.

Guess what. She ended up being one of my best mothers and her son was in our pack until they moved not long before we were going to cross over into the troop. I miss him and I miss her.

Sometimes parents get the idea that it is how fast and how many they kids earn. And lose sight of the process of learning the material.

[bbng]

One thing that hasn't yet been touched on is that each boy is very different in his abilities, motivations, interests. Some need to be pushed all the way for the badge alone; others just are ready to go for it all--every possible item they can get. It seems to me that more need a little nudge, but there are those (we have one) who just go for it all without any nudging at all.

 

Also, the family is supposed to be involved with Cubs. That means it is possible for a boy to advance without being at all, or even most, meetings.

 

I did a double-take at 28 field trips. That is something that I've not yet come across, and it seems, by comparison, too many (how DID you do that? And, was it fun for all? It seems an awfully big task. This isn't a judgement, but I'd love to hear more.)

 

I recently learned that one of sons was not believed, though we had signed the paperwork and he had received the belt loop. Instead of asking us about it, it was just given to him, but the leaders had discussed that he sure didn't earn it. Our son has friends in various countries, and he had taken a foreign language early on, plus had done some special projects relating to this--during the year he earned the belt loop. What he had done was not the norm; therefore it was suspect. I was hot when I heard this! I was told how everyone was surprised that I'd do something like this when I was normally so honest.

 

My caution would be to tread lightly in this area. Maybe, just maybe, he did do all those belt loops. Could it be that he is using school and family activities and just naturally moving through these with relative ease? Could it be a misunderstanding on his or his family's part? As for those who get upset that he has so many, I'd encourage using this as a teaching moment. We just don't always know what one is capable of or doing, and sometimes we are suprised at that one's accomplishments. Sometimes we know that something is given to someone without their earning it, and it makes us wonder why we bother to work so hard...but that applies to pretty much every area of life. It is how we respond to the surprises, the unfairness, the uncertainties of life that is the single most important thing at issue.

 

How did I handle this? It happened in a unit I served in. I asked the CC to put in on the agenda; we had a training time to review advancement (purpose of, how to, challenges), and then the DLs took that info back into their dens and communicated elements of it to all den families. The result? No change in some families, in others the boys actually came to the leaders saying they weren't so sure they had earned what they had. I personally was most impressed when the boys learned and began to think through the importance of earning something rather than just receiving it. And that is what Cubs is all about to me; the rest is icing on the cake

 

Good luck.

[Cubmaster Jerry]

I will have to disagree with at few of the responses that suggest that asking questions isn't the way to go. I most certainly would ask the scout (any scout) about his experience in doing any requirement whether it be belt loop, pin, elective, or badge requirement. Now, of course, don't establish it as a "test" but utilize it as, say, sharing time at den meetings. The other boys will enjoy hearing about other's accomplishments and it may encourage them to be more involved and excited about scouts. Lynda J's example of having the boy help is a great idea too. IF he has a tough time recalling what he did, speak to the mother and suggest that maybe he is doing too much and not reaping the full benefit from the experience. As we all know, quality is far better than quantity in Scouting.

 

Another thing to think about, and this goes along with the idea of misinformed parents, it is quite possible that the boy is the one who is misinformed. Perhaps the boy is telling his mother that he did all of the work she is just filling out the spreadsheet based on what he says. As we all know, some parents are very inactive and couldn't tell you what rank their boy is much less what he needs to do to earn it.

 

Like bbng, I too would like to hear more about the 28 field trips. I am assuming that you made learning all of the requirements much more than sitting down and reading. Good for you! But don't wear yourself out. You have three more years to go!

[mmhardy]

How did you handle BB and Archery? Since both are not considered activities that are conducted at den/pack meetings as part of the program but at a Scout camp.

 

 

[msnowman]

At least in our Council, BB & Archery can ONLY be earned at Cub Camp or at a Council authorized/District run Day camp. Our Resident camp gives each Unit leader a packet at the end of camp with a list of who has completed BB, Archery and Aquanaut so that the appropriate awards can be presented. The parents get no say on BB or Archery so if Range staff says the requirements are complete then that is the final word for those two loops.

 

As always, YMMV

 

YIS

Michelle - CM - P102

[cajuncody]

I am one of those parents with a son who has a "boatload" of loops and pins (and arrow points). However, I am a stay at home mom and a CM who fills in for a DL quite often. We do alot of belt loops and pins at home so that I can get a feel for teaching them when the time comes. Also a lot of the requirements are met at school, camps, church, and other places. My son may not remember at any given time earning a specific loop or pin but heck, sometimes he can't remember that he just ate lunch and demands a second lunch. He has more than enough loops to go all the way around him and then some (he is very slender) but there are a few more left for him to earn. I know that we are probably the exception not the rule but just keep in mind that children don't always remember things. My son used something he leaned from a belt loop he earned last year at school and was suprised he remembered but also proud enough to point out to the teacher that he had a belt loop for that.

Also he earned his Bear rank over the course of the summer (two day camps and traveling the country with his father while at work) along with several arrow points. He is an honor student and an over acheiver and I am not going to hold him back.

Kristi

[GopherJudy]

My son started as a Bear & they worked on Belt Loops and/or Pins at den meetings & the stuff that was done at home at to be brought in, like a poster, they did a family tree, etc. The den went bowling, we went fishing, they played marbles at a den meeting, so depending on the belt loop and/or pin, they did it as a den at a meeting or an activity but they did them together. The only times they didn't do it as a den is during Cub Express because some boys, with a parent or buddy. would go to different stations & earn different belt loops.

 

I think you have the right to ask the boy what he learned & to share it with the den if you don't think he really did the work. It's not fair to the other boys that he receives loops he hasn't earned & it's not fair to the boy if he receives loops & Pins that he hasn't really earned; it teaches him the wrong that.

 

At the last Cub Express in October 2004 we had one boy who "went & did" every single activity. Each boy is handed a card that has each station # & as they go to each station & complete it, that # gets punched or signed. They also receive a list that states what requirements each stations covers - belt loops, Wolf or Bear Achievements & Webelos Activity Badges requirements. Well, this mom, who causes a lot of problems when her son joined our den in January 2004, punched & signed the requirements that her son didn't do so his whole card was completed! How do I know this? Well, I had collected the cards from the boys & she didn't give me her sons til a day or 2 later. As the AWDL I was going over them to figure out what each boy completed & earned so I could show the DL & then he could give that info to the Advancememt person. I checked the cards against the 3 boys who I know wouldn't do that since they were with me & I noticed that the punches & signatures were totally different on that boys card for the same thing on my son's card & the other 2 boys. I spoke to the DL who's also the CM & explained things to him & which ones they were & he told Council to show & ask them some things & that boy only received credit for legitimate punches & signatures. That boys parents are nothing but troublemakers, they had left another pack because it "folded" & the reason it folded was because of them!

 

Also, this boy is only in 2nd grade! I seriously doubt if he did all that. I would really keep an eye on what this boy does & as not to single him out, have all of the boys talk about what they had to work on in front of the den or show what they did - poster, collection, if they made something, demonstrate a skill, ect. Good Luck with this parent!

 

Judy

 

 

[Cubmaster Jerry]

BB and Archery can ONLY be earned at Council or District level events such as Day Camp or other Summer Camps. These can only be taught by Certified instructors. You can receive this training through your Council. If you are trained, you are still NOT authorized to instruct at the Pack or Den level.

 

Hope this info is helpful...

 

Jerry

[BelieveinScouts]

Hello all,

 

Wow, I got a lot of replies. First off, let me address the BB Gun and Archery Belt loops. I certainly didn't give them to them. We are located near Cincinatti, and the boys attended a "Hooked on Fishing" day at Dan Beard Council's Cub Scout World. That's where they earned their Archery and BB Gun Belt loops. Each range, had certified BSA Instructors and the boys were given a certificate upon completion. I then had to take the certificates to our Scout Shop. You can't purchase those belt loops at our Scout shop without the certificate.

 

As for the 28 field trips, our Den did at least one field trip a month to go along with whatever achievements they were working on, sometimes two. Then our Local Council sponsored Scout Days at our local Amusement Park, Kings Island, as well as Newport Aquarium, and Perfect North Ski Slopes. Our Pack goes to see the Mighty Ducks play annually. I also booked a Pack trip to the Cinci Museum center. Our boys were working on their Collecting achievement at the time and needed to visit a place with a collection. The Cinci Musuem center had a Collector's corner that worked perfectly. We often open our trips to the whole Pack if it sounds like something everyone might enjoy. Some field trips weren't so glamorous, like the Water Treatment plant, etc. All in all, looking back, I think it was a little too much. The boys all say it was the best year ever, but this is only the 2nd year for them. The parents all say we felt like we wore ourselves out. I do have to say it was all worth it though. I can't think of one field trip I would've missed. Not all my boys came to all our Field trips too. My son and I did of course because I'm his Den leader.

 

As for this parent, she's not that involved. I love the boy, he's been with me since he was a Tiger. I don't think he realized. When I handed him the 18 Belt loops and pins, he seemed more surprised than anyone. I know kids can earn belt loops outside of scouts. My son has earned half of his doing things outside of Scouts, and we rarely worked on them at Den meetings. I plan on having a parents meeting before the start of this year, and plan on discussing the spirit of learning instead of earning. Hopefully that will help. Well, I'm trying to design a scary night hike for our Camp-out this weekend, so I must sign off. Thank you so much for everyone's advice. I love having this resource to talk to other leaders.

 

Yours in Scouting

 

Kris

[Lynda J]

I don't know if I would try to plan a Scary Night Hike. I would try to plan a moonlight night hike. We did then through our Nature Center. There were no flashlights allowed except for the guides. They were great.

 

In our Council Archery and BB's can only be done at Council or District events. No Pack can set up their own shooting event.(This message has been edited by Lynda J)