Large Den Managment

[Den leader John]

I need help in managing a large Cub Scout Den. I registered my boy for Tiger Cubs last year, and ended being the Den Leader with 16 in my Den. After going to a POW-WOW at the beginning of last year, and reading the Handbook, I knew the Den should be split up. I was able to get one of the other fathers to be an assistant Den Leader, but not a Den Leader. I ended up with 10 boys, at the end of the school year, but I have 5 more that have registered to be in my Den. I expect more will register in the fall, so my den may be bigger than it was, last year.

I would like to have 6-8 boys in my Den, but I dont think its right to pick and choose my Den, and most of the boys are good friends. I also dont see any of the other parents wanting to be a den leader.

I am planning on having the parents be more involved in the planning of the Den meetings, and maybe split the Den up at the Den meetings, with the assistant Den leader taking half.

I want to make Cub Scouts better in my Den and my Pack, and make it more like I remember it being when I was a boy.

 

Any help would be appreciated.

 

 

[scoutldr]

Just say no. There is a reason that the recommended size of a den is 6-8 boys. You can't deliver a quality program with many more than that. It is the Cubmaster's job with the help of the Pack Committee to ensure that there is enough adult leadership to keep dens a manageable size. It's better for the boys and helps prevent leader burn-out.

[Den leader John]

Thanks for your reply. I have been looking for a place to get some answers about Cub Scouting. I have the CM son in my Den as well as another DL son. They both have Dens of 3-6 boys. The Pack has 35 Cub Scouts.

I have asked to split the Den, but I am under the impression that I will need to find another DL myself.

 

I have many questions, but I wanted to start with the hardest one.

 

[scoutldr]

Most of this is explained in the Cub Scout Leader Handbook, and in the training sessions, which you should enroll in ASAP. Start with Cub Scout Leader Fast Start (online), then New Leader Essentials and Den Leader Specific Training. The monthly Cub Scout Leader Roundtable meetings are also a great source of information and ideas. Now that you are a Den Leader, you can set the terms by which your den will operate. If 10 boys is your comfort zone, then stand your ground and say you don't have any openings and the Pack Committee will have to form a new den. Ideal is 6-8, but if you have good parent support, 10 is doable. Good luck, John!

[madkins007]

My nickel's worth is...

 

1.) Get trained, and invite as many other semi-interested people as possible to join you.

 

2.) Tell the CM that you NEED fewer boys in your den and the committee will have to help locate another DL. Do not make the mistake of adding 'or they'll have to find a replacement for me as well', etc. As they add families, they NEED to add leaders as well or face real problems.

 

3.) Help everyone understand that the den leadership SHOULD be distributed over the DL, an Assistant DL, a Den Aide, the Den Chief, and the Denner and Assistant Denner. By using these positions well, you greatly reduce your burden and make the job a LOT more fun for EVERYONE! (Training and the Cub Leader manual help explain the various roles.)

[Den leader John]

Thanks for your help. I intend to get the training, but Cub Scouts takes alot of my time already. I didn't get much help last year from the other parents, but this year I am going to make it a requirement for them to be involved. I think the other parents think I get paid to be a Den leader, instead of being just another parent.

I want my boy to enjoy Scouts as much as I did, and to have it be what it was meant to be.

[Bob White]

John training takes about 4.5 hours. Its got to happen if you are truly interested in giving the boys a good scouting experience

[johndaigler]

WELCOME, DLJ!

 

Going for the training is a good idea because it will help you lessen the time you spend on Cubs. The 4.5 hours of training BW talks about will certainly save much more than that over a year.

 

Fast Start and Youth Protection are probably available on-line - I hope you have at least those.

 

For some simple, personal, PRACTICAL, and quick training be sure to read (cover to cover) the present handbook for the boys and the CS Leader Book. The "How To" book is also a great idea starter and completer. And, of course, the "Program Helps" nearly spells out a good program word for word.

 

It isn't your job to find the new DLs. It's the job of the CM, CC and COR. There is no good reason for your Den to be 15 - 20 boys. It's very unfair to the boys, and to YOU! Tell the CM your Den needs to be split and NOW. They should hold a quick parent meeting and the other parents need to step up or boys could get uninvited. I hope no one is willing to accept that result.

 

Shoot for 6's so there's room for more growth. I went from 7 to 16 last fall and, though it was painful and took 2 months of parental handwringing - we split into 8 and 8 and it's MUCH better for everyone involved. It probably would have been even better if we had split into 3 dens.

 

There are 70 pieces to the Wolf Achievements. Of those, 1 says "complete with your Den". Yes, many of them can be (and are) completed in the den, but many should be done at home with the Cub's family. Get a handle on what you want the Cub families to do at home and decide what you can do at Den Meetings and Activities. Communicate all that up front with the parents so everyone can focus just on the parts for which they're responsible.

 

PM me and I can send along attachments that I used with my Wolf parents to help organize all our efforts and minimize the wheel-reinventing.

 

IMHO, in this case, standing up for yourself and standing up for the boys is clearly the same thing. Making your life easier will also probably help these boys get a better (more personal) version of the Program.

 

Good Luck,

 

jd

[theysawyoucomin']

John,

 

I had 13 boys in my den.

I had a very good assistant den leader. We took training together. We "camped" with the boys outside in summer and inside in January about 90 miles from where the winter Olympics was held. We went to Baloo, WLOT, DL Training, Did YPT went to Pow wow. Heck I even got Wood Badge Beads.

Not braggin' , just explaining my perspective.

 

DO NOT have that may kids in your Den!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

You CANNOT give each kid the time and most importantly the patience each boy deserves.

 

You will be overwhelmed!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You will have some medicated kids, heck it seems as though 25% are medicated and another 25% ought to be.

 

Split those kids into 3 dens and tell some of the mommies and daddies this ain't child care.

It may sound harsh. But the 6 or 8 you keep deserve that. Your own son deserves that.

 

Say it aloud:

"My son deserves better than that for his Cub Scouting experience"

 

Do not make the same mistake I made. I have 9 after 3 years and it's still about 2 too many.

 

I understand we should tell no young boy NO, but the parents must step up.

 

If you want great plans for soda bottle water rockets PM me. I'll help you out.

 

Thank you for your service to Scouting and our Country.

 

 

 

[Den leader John]

I appreciate all the help. I have been looking for a place that I can get answers to my questions. I dont want to cause problems in my Pack, but I know that Cub Scouts is more than I have seen in our Pack. I am planning to get all the training that is available, and I may ruffle some feathers this year.

I will let my CM know that I would like to have 6-8 boys in my Den.

How should I go about choosing who stays and who goes? It would be nice to keep the boys that have a real interest in Scouts, rather than take the chance of loosing them in another Den. But Is that fair to the other potential Den Leaders?

 

[theysawyoucomin']

Keep all the good kids yourself!

 

 

 

 

No really, be up front with the Scouts. Tell them why changes are being made.

 

Each of the dens should have some "leadership challenges"(aka trouble). Make sure each boy has a buddy.

divide up the kids that don't get along with each other.

Be fair to the new den leaders. Remember they are now part of the team.

 

Basically love the kids you wind up with, because after three years no matter how bad some of them are you going to find some good in each one of them and they will wind up being your sons!

 

Take the kids you got and their parents on an overnight as soon as you are able. Family Camping each lad has a parent or somebody who is responsible for him. Have a great time!

[Bob White]

The place to start getting answers is with the BSA. Contact your local District Chairman and find out when you can take New Leader Essentials and Cub Den Leader Specific Training. You also need some resources at hand. The Cub Scout Leader Book, Program Helps, and The How To Book, are a must for every den, ask your pack to purchase them for you.

 

Your district hosts a monthly program helps meeting called Roundtable. It takes up 90 minutes of your time each month but can be invaluable to a good program.

 

As far as dividing the Den it has to be done. But selecting and training the two additional leaders for it is not for you to worry about. That is the Pack Committee chairman and Cubmasters responsibility. You just need to convince them that you are serious about not trying to lead a den of 16, it is not the right way to deliver cubbing.

 

I disagree strongly about involving the cubs in the decision of dividing the den. You have to consider the abilities and nature of boys this age. This is not a process they are ready for, nor should they be put into the position of creating conflicts within their friendships by seemingly picking sides. While a Boy Scout is more mature and better suited to determine their patrols that is not am appropriate process to use for a cub aged group. This is an adult process to be determined by the Den Leaders with input from the parents.

 

Before you start relying on the advice of strangers you owe it to yourself and the Den to first go learn the BSA program from BSA resources.

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[theysawyoucomin']

I don't know who the comment about letting the Cub's decide who goes in what den was directed at so I will clarify my statement.

 

At no time did I say let the boys decide. I did say let the boys know what is going on. Make sure they know it's not because "Mr. John" didn't like me. Explain to them "you will have more fun and complete more projects if the teams are smaller"

As far as knowing who gets along with whom, you have had some of them for a year. You know those boys well. Talk to the parents, to decide which boys already play together. I agree with BOb, the boys don't form up dens, neither do the parents. Take in suggestions and input whether asked for or passively observed and make those dens smaller.

[acco40]

Get the parents of all of the boys together (not the boys). Announce to the parents that you learned in training that in order to deliver the best scouting program to your son and theirs, the den size should be no more than eight boys. Then announce that you will choose eight boys to be in your den. They will need to step up and pick up their end of the bargain. Be firm.

 

I've seen dens operate in the 10 - 15 range and state that it works. It may work but it works better with smaller numbers. Stick to your guns.

[Bob White]

If I understand what accu is saying then I disagree. It iss not for the p[arents to decide who the dens or the denleaders will be. It is the Responsibility of the CR, CC, and CM, to select and approve den leadership.

 

All the parents need to know is what was decided and give them a short period of time to register any concerns, then put the plan in action.

 

It is not "your Den" it is the pack's. Do not think that as a den leader you can do whatever they want. Saying "I will take these boys now you step up and pick up your end" is not the scouting way to approach this or any situation requiring group cooperation. Everyone needs to do their role in making this as quick and smooth a transition as possible.