Atheist leader

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

CubsRgr8 asks:

Merlyn! What's your advice to EL? Quit or stay?

 

Well, I don't consider the BSA to be an honest organization (given the way it expected public schools to unlawfully discriminate against atheists when it continued to issue charters to them after fighting court cases to keep atheists out), and it denegrates atheists as part of its official policy, so I would advise any member of the BSA to join a more honest and moral organization like e.g. Camp Fire or 4H.

[schleining]

Not to pile on....BUT..

We Scouts and Scouters have always pledged duty to God and Country, and to live the Scout Law (which includes REVERENT).

The Boy Scouts of America / World Scouting Organization, does not tell you that you have to believe in a Religion, it prescribes that you should have belief and service to "A GOD".

Now to be blunt... (in a most Courteous and Kind way)

IF you do not wish to participate in the fullness of the Scouting movement..than leave.

The BSA is a private organization and does not force any one to join and/or stay. All the BSA asks is that you promise to live the Scout oath and Law.

I do not see this topic as an issue at all, much as the Homosexual issue. A boy and his family are more than welcome to participate as long as he and they promise to abide by the rules.

That is all...no pressure..no twisting of arms, the minute they are uncomfortable or feel they can't practice what we preach.. they can find another group that offers the program more condusive to their life style.

My Troop is Chartered by a Catholic Mens group, and oddly enough 80% of the Troop come from outside the Church, not even Catholic...they come for the program. I could care a less if they believe in God, go to Church, or worship trees... as long as they abide by the Rules and take the Oath and law seriously and include it in their daily lives I am good with it. In our meeting hall we have a big Crucifix. If someone is uncomfortable with it they are welcome to find a different Troop. This is just the way it is. We are sensitive to make sure we do not push Catholicism on anyone and do allow anyone to push their faith on anyone either. We are just their to be Scouts and Scouters.

The BSA is a faith based organization, wheather you like it or not...been that way since 1910, not going to change anytime soon.

 

 

Jerry

[Fuzzy Bear]

Mer,

 

Now that the BSA has lost the legal challenge and has started to take their Charters elsewhere, they are becoming an honest organization again. There must be dancing in the streets.

 

FB

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

It's hardly a favorable reflection on their honesty when they have to be forced to do the right thing.

[Fuzzy Bear]

Mer,

 

The courts are the ones being forced to reflect present day values which is not by a wide margin. When the BSA first chartered public schools and for decades afterwards, it was considered to be appropriate and acceptable by most standards and still is. The BSA's "honesty" should not be called into question because they are not guilty of anything more than being behind the changing times, a far cry from criminal or charges of immorality. The shift out of the public school charters will not take too long and then it will be business as usual. This legal push to right a wrong will ring hollow and waste time and money but that is an American right also.

FB

 

[Vicki]

FB wrote >they are not guilty of anything more than being behind the changing times, a far cry from criminal or charges of immorality.>

 

In this age of moral relativism, I don't consider it to be a "bad thing" to be behind the changing times. In fact, there are times when I'll be happy to take the pole position in that particular race.

 

Vicki

[Fuzzy Bear]

Drivers Start Your Engines!

[Prairie_Scouter]

>I do not see this topic as an issue at all, much as the Homosexual issue.

 

Schleining,

I think that these really are 2 separate issues. A strong case can be made that BSA membership is limited to those with a belief in "a God" because it is stated pretty clearly in the Scout precepts. Whether it's right or not is a different discussion, and one that goes on here fairly regularly not because we necessarily expect change, but in the spirit of honest intellectual discussion on important issues.

 

The issue on homosexuality isn't specifically covered in the Scout precepts that I'm aware of; it's more an interpretation of other statements. And like any interpretations, these are open to debate and change. Once again, discussion here aren't because we necessarily expect change anytime soon, but there are those, like me, who believe that Scouting should be more "open". There are those who think otherwise, and various views can be discussed openly and in good spirit in these forums

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

The reason the BSA is losing public school charters is not due to societal changes, it's that most people assumed the BSA was a public accommodation, and not a private, religious organization.

That's due to the BSA's actions. And I can certainly question their honesty when they argue in court that they're a private, discriminatory religious organization while at the same time they're chartering public schools to own & operate their private, discriminatory religious clubs.

[Vicki]

FB - and they're off! (although I guess that's more of a horse racing term:

[Prairie_Scouter]

Merlyn,

 

Do you think it's possible to separate the actions of BSA's national office from the local Scouting units? Legal action taken against BSA national, as in the case of not allowing public schools to sponsor units, ends up hurting the local units rather than the national organization that created the policies. It seems to me that, having lost in court going against BSA National, the legal strategy now seems to be to take actions that have no real affect on BSA National but instead end up affecting the Scouts directly. That seems to me to be flawed strategy if the intent is to get change. Public schools present a more open environment where the Scouts may see different points of view; by forcing them out of public schools, they become more likely to be sponsored by groups who more actively support the current BSA policy, and make it less likely that the Scouts will be exposed to alternative views. Today's Scouts are tomorrows leaders. By exposing them to as much information as possible, they can make informed decisions as to whether to support the BSA policies as they grow older, or advocate change, based on their own beliefs. If legal action forces them out of these more open environments, a free exchange of knowledge becomes less likely, don't you think?

 

 

Question. How does BSA's status as a private organization affect their hiring policies for their own employees?

[Vicki]

Prairie Scouter wrote >Do you think it's possible to separate the actions of BSA's national office from the local Scouting units? >

 

I don't think it is possible. The local Scouting unit, while chartered to a CO, gets its identity from the National organization - hence the ability to use the name "Boy Scouts of America" and all the associated materials instead of being "Boys Associated with ABC Church." As National goes, so do we. Can't have it both ways.

 

Vicki

[Vicki]

Prairie Scouter wrote >Question. How does BSA's status as a private organization affect their hiring policies for their own employees? >

 

I don't understand this question. IMO, BSA hiring policies would be under EEOC regs just like anybody else. For instance, and I think this is where you're going with this but correct me if I'm wrong - if the BSA could establish that belief in a supreme being and fulfillment of duty to same were BFOQs (Bona Fide Occupational Qualifications) to being employed by the BSA, then they could hire only those with such beliefs. That BFOQ could be established if all employees are required to cite the Scout Oath and Law. It may be that only those employees required to wear the uniform would fall under that requirement, thus the custodial staff would not.

 

Vicki

 

[Prairie_Scouter]

Hi Vicki,

 

And thanks; I think you're right from a BSA organizational standpoint. I was referring more to the legal strategies currently being used in regards to BSA policy. Having lost in the Supreme Court, the current strategy seems to be having the affect of "punishing the Scouts" when it seems that what is desired by those taking such legal action is change at the national level. As I said, I don't think that that's a strategy that's going to have the desired effect, and really just makes things harder at the local unit, which really has nothing to say about national policy.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

The Keith Richardson case, currently being appealed to the IL supreme court, is about employment discrimination.

http://www.bsa-discrimination.org/html/richardson-top.html

 

Prairie_Scouter, the National BSA has said that ALL of their Packs and Troops have to exclude atheists, with no exemption for e.g. public schools that charter units. In other words, the BSA expects public schools to actually violate the civil rights of its own students.

 

That's unacceptable. Public schools can't officially practice religious discrimination, even if they unofficially ignore it.

 

Let me ask you this; what would happen if a boy in a public-school chartered Pack wants to join?

What if a current member (who joined when he believed in a god) now says he's an atheist?

 

I'll tell you what would happen; National BSA would yank his membership, and that public school is owning & operating a "no atheist allowed" private club. The school now has an unwinnable lawsuit on its hands.

 

Do you think something other than the above would happen?