Faith in Scouting

[Scoutndad]

In reading the Cub Scout handbook (any den), it becomes apparent that faith is a large part of scouting. Many of you are saying, "that's an understatement"...

However, for many of us who were not involved with scouts growing up, parents and boys became members of our local cub scout pack for reasons other than faith (cool camping and hikes and real "guy" stuff).

As the boys progress up the ranks, the "faith" requirement becomes more and more prevalent. Oh sure, we acknowledge our faith everytime we recite the Pledge of Allegiance at our meetings, stand and salute as the National Anthem is played, and even bow our heads at the Pack or Den meetings with the invocation or meal prayer... but how many parents and scouts sign up for the scouts because it is a religious based group?

As a den leader who has progressed in experience "under fire", I personally found myself evolving spiritually, as my scout first earned his "Light of Christ" metal (along with 2 other boys (out of 9)) and now accomplishing his "Parvuli Dei". I have led the other scouts to the watering hole, but I won't make them drink. I will offer direction and resources when asked, but their faith growth is best left to their parents or guardians.

 

With that now comes the idea that when we signed the membership form both as scouts and as leaders, we signed as spiritual people. But what about those that are not?

What about those members that we slowly realize fall under the title Agnostic or Athiestic but signed the form anyway?

How do the leaders/ parents handle these tribulations without affecting the scouting experience?

How far should the leader/parent go if they recognize an agnostic or atheistic parent leader or scout (through their own admission)?

What about a leader that has to deal with a religious belief that they are completely unable to understand?

Where does a leader or parent draw the line when these families or scouts are identified, without creating a "witch" hunt and a negative impact?

[Bob White]

I like to avoid the problem at the outset by trining the parents about wat scouting is and isn't.

 

As a Cubmaster at the beginning of each year, We would sen the scouts either outside or to another room as we did a parent welome orientation to Scouting.

 

Some do this as a written handout. I think that's a bad idea. To be effective this has to be a personal presentation. We explasin that the BSA isn't about canpming or hiking or buiding thongs out of toungues depressors even though we will do all those things. We teach stuff. We teach good stuff. In the course of their son's scouting career we will teach them things like, the importance of family and how to be a better family member, We will teach how to be a good citizen and how your community and nation works, we will teach them the importance of God and how you have a responsibility of service to your God. 10 out of every 100 boys who join scouting will get their first exposure to organized religion through scouting. While we believe that should come from the family it doesn't always, but it will come from scouting. We teach them that doing homework has rewards, and that being a good person does too. We will teach them the value of good health and how to make health choices throughout their lives.

 

We let them know that how the advancment program works and who at what level can sign the book and how to use the advancement program at home to re-inforce positive behavior.

 

We then introduce all the leaders and allow the parents to meet with anyone they want, and ask any questions they might have.

 

In three years as a Cubmaster I never had a conflict over the ideals of the program with any parent. The only time a boy quit was when they moved or crossed over.

 

Most problems come from poor communications. Tell them in advance how things work and then be consistant in your actions.

 

BW

[cubbingcarol]

Well said BW.

 

Carol

[packsaddle]

I'll take a stab at this question-by-question.

 

"What about those members that we slowly realize fall under the title Agnostic or Athiestic but signed the form anyway?

How do the leaders/ parents handle these tribulations without affecting the scouting experience?"

I think this question assumes that the opportunity to give them prior orientation has passed, or they didn't listen or they ignored the orientation session.

It does affect the experience if they are atheists. In that case they do not meet the membership requirements. There is little or no flexibility available. An agnostic, on the other hand, ought still be open to new ideas. I encourage them in the search.

 

"How far should the leader/parent go if they recognize an agnostic or atheistic parent leader or scout (through their own admission)?"

Again, the big problem arises with an avowed atheist. I make sure they know what the membership requirement is. With a leader, I am at equal status in the organization and I leave it to their conscience. I do not judge them and I respect their ability to make the best personal decision. I am not a faith Nazi. So far this has not created a problem with anyone.

With a boy, I would try to communicate the importance of being honest. I think honesty is important even if that has an effect on his status. So far I haven't had to face this situation with a boy.

 

"What about a leader that has to deal with a religious belief that they are completely unable to understand?"

The scout leader isn't required to understand every faith or belief. They are required, as scouts, to respect all faiths.

 

"Where does a leader or parent draw the line when these families or scouts are identified, without creating a "witch" hunt and a negative impact?"

This is related to the first question. First, this question only involves the boy and his family, not the rest of the troop. There is no need to negatively impact the troop. If a boy, somewhere along the way, insists that he is an atheist and is firm in this belief, then he cannot advance. There is little, if any, flexibility for this situation. Things change and he may eventually change his views. I would place no burden on him, save for the requirement, but again, I haven't faced this situation.

If, hypothetically speaking, a boy approaching Eagle asks about the need to provide a personal reference to a religious leader, but does not attend any church, then there still exists some latitude. Faith does not require church membership or attendance. I asked a boy once from whom he has learned about religious faith. He told me. I informed him that was the person he might consider as his religious leader.

On another occasion, a boy may openly question matters of faith. I encourage him to continue to ask such questions but to make sure he is honest with himself and others. And to be sure and give me the answer if he figures it out . I am always heartened to see how much a boy wants to help an old guy who needs a little help in these matters. Some good conversations too, sometimes.

[Scoutndad]

Excellent responses...

 

I still need to question what do you do with the leader/parent that is an atheist agnostic or atheist?

They do not meet the requirments (and yes your presumption is correct, this is all played out after the form is signed) now what....

 

To say that they can no longer be part of the scouts will certainly bring up discussion with the remaining families of the Pack/Troop and while it may not have a negative impact, this will certainly cause a distraction among the boys and families.

I don't think everyone including myself as a leader and parent would promote the denial of scouting to a boy based on their lack of understanding or completion in a requirement that they can not fulfill. And before you (directed to the forum and not an individual) say it is black and white about BSA principles, how about the physcially, emotionally and mentally disabled boys that are in scouts and "do their best" with all of their requirements?

We as a leader and a parent will always respect (good word PS) the faith of others but I am not sure we understand the magnitude of our actions, spoken and unspoken, about adhering to some of these with requirements without discretion.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[packsaddle]

I don't see agnostic as a problem for either parent or leader. A parent can be anything they want if they are not a registered leader. As for such a leader, the only way I can detect atheism is for the individual to inform me of it in some way. If I learn that one of the adults is an atheist, as I said, I make sure they know the membership requirement and then (not being the CO) I leave it to their conscience. The atheists I know are persons of great conscience.

 

Because they have status equal to mine, I don't consider it part of my duties to enforce such matters on them, I'm fairly certain I don't have the authority anyway. If I have such knowledge of another person, I consider it to be confidential and their personal responsibility to inform others, not mine. Therefore, unless there is some other problem, I continue with my duties.

[Scoutndad]

I completely understand your point on authority and directives. We are leaders, not the BSA police.

 

I also share your viewpoint on informing the leader (or parents of a scout) about the BSA guidleines and allow them the courtesy of reaching their own conclusion.

 

I alos concur with you that theistic agnosticism still fulfills the faith portion, however atheistic agnosticism and atheists need to be reminded (not singled out) that the pack/troop they belong to (or are joining), have fundamentals based on faith.

 

Still a tough call defining this until the scout needs to fulfill a requirement based on faith...as the other forum shows, people trust BSA and would be willing to sign any form that is placed in front of them. Some do not understand what they have signed (and do not have it explained) and are never reminded until issues like these pop up and leaders are left with trying to understand the complexity of enforcing BSA guidelines.

[dsteele]

This is the type of thing that I believe should be discussed with your own Chartered Organization and your district leadership -- the District Chairman, District Commissioner or District Executive.

 

I don't think the boy (in the one situation) with an agnostic mother should be hindered or excluded. He's too young to make a decision regarding the existance of God.

 

As to the leader who plainly does not believe in God . . . you're not a bad person. I don't believe for a second that you're a bad person. However, you can not, by definition fulfill an obligation to God because you don't believe in Him and therefore can not teach others to do so.

 

Unc.

[EagerLeader]

Uncleguinea,

 

"However, you can not, by definition fulfill an obligation to God because you don't believe in Him and therefore can not teach others to do so."

 

Where does it say that the DL needs to teach others about God? Cub Scouts is a family-oriented organization, and most rank requirements need to be worked on at home. The religion requirements should be completed in the home, with the parent and the religious leader. To try and teach religion in a Den meeting would be nearly impossible, as there are bound to be boys of differing faiths in the group.

 

It isn't a requirement to TEACH others their duty to God, only to acknowledge belief in a higher power.

 

 

[Scoutndad]

There are some definite hard line beliefs on BSA out there that scare me, but overall, by penalizing volunteers because of their beliefs is contrary to any Judea Christian teachings out there that advocate ministry.

 

Which now leads me full circle to this faith question...not sure how many of you have read The Good Book? I don't profess to knowing too many scriptures by heart, but my faith is directed by my religion, and my actions founded upon the values instilled upon me by my parents and friends, predicated on the teachings within the Bible.

 

I would agree that we don't have to "like" the beliefs of those contrary to ourselves, but if you subscribe to the BSA Faith Guidelines prior to your religious beliefs and foundations (whether it be the Bible, Torah or Koran) then according to those hardliners, you may need to go back to your religious leaders and ask for absolvement of judging those rather than lay ministry to help those see the light.

 

Unc, I agree with your point and in those circumstances, it was not the parent, but the child that needed to be interviewed regarding their faith. Things worked out and I was fortunate.