Agnostic parent

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Fuzzy Bear writes:

There is nothing that can be construed as being hidden about the ideals and goals of the BSA.

 

James Dale didn't realize that the Boy Scouts didn't allow gays, because at the time the only rules keeping out gays were BSA internal memos that weren't available to the general public.

 

Five years after the Dale decision, and there STILL isn't anything in the BSA's own registration material that says gays aren't allowed. I'd say that qualifies as a hidden ideal.

 

The religious requirements also haven't been consistent; in 1985, the BSA kicked out Paul Trout for not believing in a god, but readmitted him later, even though his views hadn't changed.

 

As for the government backing the BSA, that's also changing, of course.

[Trevorum]

BW said, "The agnostic doesn't believe or disbelieve in God; the agnostic is unwilling to make a decision."

 

Bob, correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought we had established earlier in this thread that agnostics merely feel that the existence of god is not proveable. This doesn't prevent them from believing in God, they just can't prove his/her existence.

 

An analogy may help. Some people firmly believe we are alone in the universe (these are analogous to 'atheists'). Others fervently believe in the existence of intelligent life elsewhere in our galaxy, but can not prove such existence and would be classified as agnostics on the subject. Finally, people who have seen "flying saucers" or have met real aliens CAN prove this to themselves and are True Believers. They will never convince the 'atheists', or vice-versa.

[packsaddle]

Probably giving agnosticism short shrift here, but in the spirit of the thread - the Apostle (later Saint) Thomas...didn't he express doubt regarding the resurrection? Early agnostic as far as I'm concerned. And all those skeptics in Missouri (the 'Show Me' state), agnostics every one of them.

T.H. Huxley coined the term sometime around 1870 to describe his own views. 'Logical positivist' didn't do the trick, nor did "rational nonbelief." The term stuck in the language but its use is very broad in application.

In the broadest sense, wouldn't anyone who has the slightest feeling of uncertainty about irrational, supernatural things qualify as agnostic? I think, yes.

[Rixkidz]

I would like to know how the mom can plan to be the Asst Cubmaster if she is Agnostic? How can she say the oath and pladge etcc..

 

She is not following the religious beliefs of the organization ?!

 

Here in Washington a Boy Scout was kicked out of BSA for admiting that he didnt beleive in God..

[packsaddle]

Rixkidz, Please enlighten us as to just what are the "religious beliefs of the organization"?

[Rixkidz]

Maybe I used the wrong words.... But did you read my last sentence? The BSA kicked out a boy that admited to being a Atheist....

 

"from the BSA site"

Young people need faith. There is abundant evidence that children benefit from the moral compass provided by religious tradition. We acknowledge that faith can become an important part of a child's identity. Each of the major faiths breeds hope, optimism, compassion, and a belief in a better tomorrow. Scouting encourages each young person to begin a spiritual journey through the practice of his or her faith tradition. One of the key tenets of Scouting is "duty to God". While Scouting does not define religious belief for its members, it has been adopted by and works with youth programs of all major faiths.

---------------------------------------------

 

How can an adult say the Oath or the Promise or believe in duty to God if they do not believe in God?

 

 

 

[Fuzzy Bear]

People can be confused by the policies of the BSA but the policies are there in B/W to be read. Many of the policies are taught in training sessions. Most of the policies are recited and memorized. I am certain that some miss the policies even after all of the attempts have been made to teach and to learn them. I am uncertain how to make the policies known 100% of the time but I stand by the point that they are not hidden.

 

As for Thomas, he believed in God. He did not believe in the resurrection. That did not make him an agnostic but a skeptic. As for Missourian's, they are not necessarily Agnostics but skeptics, just like Thomas. Part of the book of Acts is a proof for Jesus life over death. This account was also used as an early proof to establish a controversial first century doctrine of the Trinity.

 

Huxley could have stuck his hand in Jesus' wound just like Thomas was asked but Huxley would have needed more proof to say that Jesus was God and that God was God. Huxley would merely have said that Jesus was alive and would have questioned the crucification.

 

FB

[packsaddle]

Fuzzy Bear, this is just a difference in points of view. In my view, faith is either absolute and unquestioning or it is less than true faith. Neither of us knows what Huxley would have done in your hypothetical but I think most skeptics and many agnostics would be believers if they had been there personally for the crucifixion and resurrection. I could be wrong but I think someone who witnessed it personally would find it difficult to refute.

[Fuzzy Bear]

According to the book of Acts, people that were already followers of Jesus did not refute what they experienced, which gives you the stronger argument. A blessing was given to those that did not experience those events and yet believe.

 

I appreciate that your belief in faith as being 100% or 0. I do not believe the same as you do about those attributes of faith. According to your definition, Huxley a skeptic and I would have no faith and would be considered having the same label. The criteria of experience you set have long ago passed, so we would have little chance of ever finding that faith.

 

 

 

FB

 

 

 

(This message has been edited by Fuzzy Bear)

[Scoutndad]

Rix - the mom has no problem with signing or reciting anything relating to god or religious beliefs. If we fall back to the avowed part, then yes, she did admit to me, but as a DL, I am not going to judge the content of her religious beliefs nor am I going to question this.

 

I have already indicated to our Charter Rep and will take the advice offered early on in this thread and ask the parents to speak with others more saavy in BSA policies to determine the leader and Boy Scout requirements down the road.

 

I advanced the young man because this scout deserved and earned his advancement. I will encourage him through the next year if the family lasts that long, and hope that this boy will eventually continue through the Boy Scouts and eventually understand WHY the BSA uses faith as a requirement.

 

Thanks

 

[packsaddle]

Fuzzy Bear, I'm in the same boat with you on this and I think most others are as well.

I see a huge amount of variation for agnosticism.

I intended my statement to make the point that few if any of us meet the 'absolute' criterion for true faith. Likewise, few of us have 'absolute' knowledge regarding these matters...we're still searching.

In my approach to this, when a person doesn't 'know' something it represents, to some degree, an agnostic view. Therefore most of us, within that huge range of variation, are agnostics.

And I'm skeptical of anyone who claims they DO have absolute knowledge, or absolute faith.

Edited part: Department of Redundancy Department (This message has been edited by packsaddle)

[Fuzzy Bear]

PS

I would love to say that I have absolute faith but I fear that it would only be for some of the time.

FB

 

[Lynda J]

I spoke to my minister Sunday and related this problem to him and ask him what he thought.

His response was that a true agnostic parent would neither encourage or discourage their child in the belief of God. They would give them the freedom to make their own choice.

[hoomeye]

I realize that I'm a bit late to the party, but I found this thread while searching for answers to a dilemma of my own. My son recently advanced from tiger to wolf and I've been asked to be the wolf den leader in a small, very new pack. I had initially agreed, but after reading a little more on BSA policy informed the cubmaster that I'd have to decline as I am agnostic. I consider myself a theistic agnostic (by the definition in an earlier post) and my son and his father are Christian. His father lives in another state, though, and will be unable to directly support him in scouting. Is this going to cause my son problems as he advances in scouting? Does the policy prohibit agnostics from being Akela to their sons? It seems like the ban against agnostics as leaders is pretty firm, but that the actual requirements for advancement (at least those I've seen) seem more flexible.

 

The disciminatory policies of the BSA severely annoy and offend me, as does the begging for money that comes of the United Way no longer providing funding (for reasons that I applaud), but it's very hard to tell a 6 year old that he can't be a scout because mommy doesn't like their politics. I also have hope that in time the teaching of religious tolerance may extend beyond the established faiths to include agnostics and others that have become disillusioned with organized religion.

 

PS - I would like to say that this thread is the most open-minded discussion on agnosticism that I've ever come across. The worst are actually the so-called "atheist & agnostic" boards, which are generally a bunch of atheists trying to convert agnostics. You wouldn't believe the flames I got for admitting to actually going to church in support of my son's religious and moral growth.

 

[packsaddle]

Welcome to the forums Hoomeye.

My reactions are several. How sad it would be for a boy to be so deprived because his adult partner is undecided.

I think it is important also to remember that all BSA asks for is your signature. Your faith is not under scrutiny by anyone except you, yourself. Therefore, YOU are the only person competent to decide.

If you are not an atheist, then you must be considering the possibility of a 'higher power' (or some such) and my personal opinion is that you can be your son's Akela. Actually, even if you are an atheist and you can rationalize the decision in your mind to sign the form, you can still join. And it would be neither my business, nor anyone else's. In practice, THAT actually is BSA policy. Don't ask, don't tell.

Welcome to scouting.