Agnostic parent

[GopherJudy]

Scoutndad,

 

How did everything go with the interview for the one Scout today? I hope that all went well & you don't have a headache from it!

 

Judy

[Scoutndad]

Being new to the Scouter forum, I understand how things get missed in long threads. FB needed to go back and start from the first thread to understand that this was not about respecting the families religious beliefs as much as it was not being able to interview the scout to see how his faith or absence thereof, affected his advancement as a cub scout. While FB is certainly right about respecting other families beliefs, my main concern was just to speak with the scout.

 

TO ALL:

THE INTERVIEW WENT WELL. MOM LET DAD PARTICIPATE IN THE INTERVIEW YESTERDAY AND WHILE I CAN NOT FULLY UNDERSTAND THEIR FAITH, IT WAS QUITE CLEAR THAT THERE WAS A SENSE OF RESPONSIBILITY/BELIEF TO/OF A HIGHER POWER. I MAY HAVE HAD A SIMILARILY DIFFICULT TIME WITH ANY OTHER SCOUT FROM A FAITH I WAS NOT FAMILIAR WITH, BUT AS FAR AS I WAS CONCERNED, THIS SCOUT ANSWERED ALL QUESTIONS AND FULFILLED ALL OF HIS REQUIREMENTS FOR HIS WEBELOS BADGE. INCIDENTALLY, MOM DID NOT SIT DOWN WITH US DURING THE INTERVIEW AND I DON'T THINK SHE MADE THE HUSBAND AWARE OF THE CONVERSATION AND CONCERNS SHE HAD WITH ME. OH WELL, IT'S DONE AND I CAN'T EXPRESS HOW THANKFUL I WAS TO HAVE THIS FORUM OF EXPERIENCED AND HELPFUL SCOUTING LEADERS, PARENTS AND MEMBERS. THANK YOU.

[Laurie]

You know that you don't have to understand the beliefs a boy holds, right? It sounds that way, and though this started out with a parent not allowing a son to talk about his religion/duty to God, the end result is that the parents agreed and the boy was able to tell how he does his duty to God. If this were me, I'd let it go now. The family now understands that this is part of Scouting, and they are supporting their son. Enjoy the ceremony when all of your boys earn their Webelos badge! Congrats to you and to them

[Vicki]

>MOM DID NOT SIT DOWN WITH US DURING THE INTERVIEW AND I DON'T THINK SHE MADE THE HUSBAND AWARE OF THE CONVERSATION AND CONCERNS SHE HAD WITH ME.>

 

I guess this would concern me, then I'd have to put it firmly into the "none of my business" box and forget about it.

 

How much contact do you have with the SM of his future troop? Not saying you should go running to him about this particular situation, but it will be interesting to see what happens down the line.

 

Vicki

[Scoutndad]

Maybe I will do a spin off this week for this issue...

 

Vicki...we have a real tough time in our area with the local troops...

Although it is a two way street, the local troops have not made themselves known or actively participate in events with (or invited to) our Cub Scout Pack.

 

Since I am the Webelos I (soon to be II) leader, I will make sure and hunt down the troops and try and get my scouts involved so they can not only fulfill their requirements, but see how their attitude, aptitude and faith is part of everyday scouting.

 

To answer your question more directly, the boy is involved with other activities and has mentioned that he does not want to continue with scouting after cub scouts....future discussons about "reverence" many be moot...time will tell..

[GopherJudy]

Scoutndad,

 

I'm so glad to hear that your interview with the boy went well & that his mom didn't give you a hard time & that the boy's dad was there. Maybe the boy will change his mind about crossing over & becoming a Boy Scout but at least that's something that you don't have to worry about! Take care.

 

Judy

[Lynda J]

To limit a boy to the belief in "GOD" is wrong. There are to many religions that though have a higher being do not refer to that being as "GOD"

Don't get me wrong. I believe in God. I have also seem young people that were raised in homes that do not have any religious belief that later in life turn to religion. So in my opinion work as hard as you can with this young man. Give as much flex as you can. Many times when kids are not exposed to any religious belief they simply don't know.

I don't care if they believe in a tree as long as they believe that there is a higher power.

[Bob White]

I must admit I have never heard the belief in God referred to as "limited" ever before. In fact just the opossits. A belief in God is limitless. It would have to if one truly accepted the existence of God.

 

The word "God" is used by the BSA simply as a label to identify a supreme power, as you can see by the extensive list of religions that participate in scouting and in the The BSA's religious recognition program those religions you refer to are not bothered by the BSA's label so why would you be?

 

 

[Vicki]

Just to establish the definitional playing field, so to speak, from the American Heritage Dictionary - god 1. a being conceived as the perfect, omnipotent, omniscient originator and ruler of the universe, the principal object of faith and worship in monotheistic religions.

 

2. a being of supernatural powers or attributes, believed in and worshiped by a people.

 

Duty 1. an act or a course of action that is required of one by position, social custom, law or religion.

 

To discharge a duty as required by the Law, it would seem to me that one must have committed oneself to "an act or course of action." As Lynda points out (flippantly but true nonetheless), a Druid would fulfill this requirement in a normal grove service required by his/her faith. The key words being faith and duty in any discussion regarding this requirement. Absent the presence of these two, I don't think one can honestly sign the application or be in the BSA. Cubs, as far as the boys are concerned (not adults), might be a different matter - but even there the requirement binds the cub ever tighter as he progresses through the ranks.

 

Vicki

[Lynda J]

Maybe I worded what I said wrong. What I meant was that some Agnostics have trouble with the word GOD. And it would be sad to lose this boy to scouting because of a word. The belief in a higher being is a part of our heart and our soul. So the belief in a higher being was what I was getting at.

Had a youth minister once that had been raised agnostic. When he got older he realized in his heart that he did believe in God.

I would hope that there would be a way of keeping this boy in scouting until he is old enough for his heart to tell him how he believes.

 

[Vicki]

Lynda wrote >So the belief in a higher being was what I was getting at. >

 

Me, too. That's why the important words for me, as I mentioned in the prior e-mail, are "faith" and "duty." God, and I think the BSA recognizes this but is having trouble with the politics of the situation, is way too big to put in a definitional box.

 

Vicki

 

[Bob White]

I am unaware that the agnostics have any problems with words. they have a problem with faith. An agnostic by definition is a person who holds the view that any ultimate reality (such as God) is unknown and probabaly unknowable by anyone.

 

The agnostic doesn't believe or disbelieve in God the agnostic is unwilling to make a decision. There is an old joke

Q. "how many agnostics does it take to change a light bulb"

A. "I don't know that anybody can say for sure."

 

Agostics choose not to commit to a belief or a disbelief. How as a scout can you promise to do your duty God but not have a belief in God? Doing your duty requires a personal committment to the objective of that duty.

 

BW

 

 

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[Lynda J]

At age 10 it is hard for a kid to understand faith if he hasn't been exposed. Hopefully scouting can give this young man enough wiggle room to find out where his heart is.

The youth minister was almost 16 when he said he realized in his heart he did believe in God.

[Fuzzy Bear]

I would like one more run at this. *This is a general statement and not directed at this column only.

 

IMHO, it is mostly the parents that have the rights in this situation and not the Scout. I agree that the Scout may or may not be able to define his belief in God or a Higher Power or if he has a duty and if so, what it is. Now, this does not mean the Scout is lower functioning and it does not mean that all Scouts do not know how to define God or a Higher Power at that young age because some do and some will know their duty, others won't.

 

When there is a question like the one stated in this column, then the parents must make some decisions for themselves as to how to help answer this question. To disqualify a Scout from the program for lack of knowledge would leave too many questions and too few answers. The parents are the ones that were not fully informed from the start and if they were not, then they were certainly confused. They need to have the application read to them. They need to read the Cub Promise and discuss it to make sure that they understand all of the Scout program and not just the parts that they feel comfortable in accepting.

 

Now, all of that seems silly but I have a friend that brought his son into the program and later left because of the issues of God and homosexuality. He feels that the Scout program unfairly discriminates against his beliefs and he believes that the Scouts are not a good example of an American institution because it does so. He feels that the government should not back such an organization and is indignant about this situation. I must admit that he has a point but playing soccer was his answer for him and his son.

 

Another problem that I did not point out to my friend was that he had been in the BSA as a youth and he had to have known the policies even then. When he returned as a father of a youth, he must have thought that even though the policies had not changed, they must have somehow been selectively deleted because of time or maybe somebody had "wiggled" around the policies for him as a youth. I don't know but he had rediscovered the policies and then got out. He and his son were hurt nonetheless.

 

Just a very few years ago, these issues were generally not acceptable and such an argument would have had little ground for validity or question but with all of the changes and shifts in the laws, the ground of thought has also changed. Maybe the BSA is behind the times on these issues but they have made it clear in writing, followed with words, and then deeds what it is they believe. There is nothing that can be construed as being hidden about the ideals and goals of the BSA. It may be that people will need to seek out other organizations, like my friend and his son for their leisure time activities because of these ideals. I personally dislike it that we must separate ourselves like this because it doesn't seem Scout-like but then I do not get to make the rules either.

 

When I said that all would be hurt all around, I can point to numerous instances in my own experience where people were left out for these reasons and for other reasons where blatant discrimination that had nothing to do with BSA policies but with people/Scouters being unkind and unthinking of others. When we find that we must give reason to separate ourselves from others we must do it slowly and with the utmost of respect for the other person's beliefs. We must also be very careful so that we don't carryover the reasons to separate ourselves as being a way to validate other reasons to separate ourselves. We must find ways to bring people to a common ground with every opportunity.

 

FB

 

 

 

[packsaddle]

FuzzyBear, I agree with what you say. I think that it is possible, however, for a boy not to know BSA policy on these issues - I certainly didn't when I was a scout. And I see how it is possible for the father not to have known the 'policy' when he was a scout.

 

Back then my dominant thoughts were that I loved the outdoors and fun with the troop, that there were requirements I had to meet for advancement, and that rank advancement presented me with a set of goals that I wanted to achieve.

 

I usually started daydreaming if a discussion went to any topic like 'policy' and thinking back on my leaders, they probably didn't discuss 'policy' much anyway. The only paperwork I have any memory of were the blue cards and the check-off pages in my handbook. I continued to ignore important things like that right up to college. I suspect I was not atypical, at least in my age cohort.

 

Edited part: grammatical, sorry.(This message has been edited by packsaddle)