Agnostic parent

[Scoutndad]

Laurie-

Unfortunately, neither is an option...

 

That's why I turned to the experts...

[NWScouter]

Now if I'm correct in memory of Cub advancement -- it is the parents that sign off the requirements and the den leaders responsibility is to record them and make sure the awards are reported to the pack advancement chair. Is this not similar to the many discussions of merit badges -- if it is signed off the leader can't deny it?

[Scoutndad]

Good question...you are correct for most of the requirements in Cub Scouts, in that Akela signs off...

 

however...

 

The requirements for the Webelos Badge are very specific and REQUIRE the Scout to confer with the Den Leader on at least one of the requirements.-no getting around this one-

 

So while most of the requirements up until now have been a duel role (leader or parent sign off) for the most part...I now have my first major headache...

 

Additionally, as the leader, I have always interviewed my boys on all of their achievements to find the level of "doing their best" - and not being judgemental but ensuring that they are getting the most out of it and not pleasing parents living vicariously through their boys...

 

In this case, it was not close...the forum has issued their edict and I will have a discussion with mom and dad and allow them to decide what is best for their scout.

[Bob White]

Now if I'm correct in memory of Cub advancement -- it is the parents that sign off the requirements and the den leaders responsibility is to record them and make sure the awards are reported to the pack advancement chair.

 

That is only true of Tiger through Bear. In Webelos the Den Leader signs all advancements.

 

BW

[NJCubScouter]

It appears that this young man's mother is under the impression that you, as den leader, have the authority to change or "waive" advancement requirements for a particular Scout, which of course is not the case. The same would be true if the requirement in question was for the Outdoorsman or Readyman activity badge, or some other requirement. It just happens that in this case the religion requirement is involved. Hopefully in a meeting with both parents (which I think is called for in this case in order to avoid any "misunderstandings"), they will be able to accept this and make their choice.

 

At least one poster seems to have inferred that the Scout himself is an "agnostic," but as far as I can see, Scoutndad has not said that. He has said that the Scout's mother is an agnostic, but Scoutndad does not actually know what the boy's beliefs are or aren't (because Mom won't let the boy say, at this point.) Even if the boy does think he is an "agnostic," that term is not necessarily self-defining. It may be that he believes that there is some higher power but does not know what the nature of that higher power is. Based on what I have read, that is good enough for the BSA. He would still be able to pass the Webelos requirements if he is able to discuss how whatever he does believe fits in with the wording of the requirements. I had occasion to study those requirements closely myself a few years ago, and while I see that some of the wording has changed in the new requirements, the "spirit" (if you will) has not changed. There were, and still appear to be, two choices that allow you to "pass" without being part of an organized religion, and you only have to choose two of the five or six choices, which I am pretty sure is not a coincidence in light of the BSA's statements that it "prefers" but does not require membership in a particular religion.

 

Then, and I hesitate to bring this up, there is the issue of the mother being an assistant cubmaster. Is she is a registered leader now? One wonders if she has read the "Declaration of Religious Principles" that is printed on the application she signed (or will have to sign if she has not), and whether she is able to subscribe to that declaration. But again, that is not necessarily clear because the word "agnostic" does not necessarily close the door. The fact that the bsalegal.org web site (a public relations tool of the BSA) says that "agnostics" are not permitted does not necessarily answer the question.

[NWScouter]

Just thought a definition might help. I think it gives a lot of wiggle room.

 

agnostic [ ag nstik ] (plural agnostics)

 

 

noun

 

1. somebody denying Gods existence is provable: somebody who believes that it is impossible to know whether or not God exists

 

 

2. somebody denying something is knowable: somebody who doubts that a particular question has a single correct answer or that a complete understanding of something can be attained

 

 

[Trevorum]

So, an agnostic can believe in a higher power but at the same time admit that it is impossible to prove the existence of such?(This message has been edited by Trevorum)

[Bob White]

What also needs to be understood is the BSA's stand on "Duty to God". It is the BSA's position that duty to God is not an ideal but an obligation of every member.

 

Regardless of what the youth's personal beliefs are, if he cannot give evidence that he has met the advancement requirements regarding duty to God obligations he will not be allowed to advance.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[Scoutndad]

An accurate assessment NW...

 

At least that was my read and the reason why I think that the scout might qualify for his badge - but of course without the interview and sign off - yikes...

 

You bring up another great dilemma and that is the position of Asst Cubmaster - I am sure she is willing to sign anything without consequence to her own beliefs in order to help out the pack. If I have not made it clear to this point, this mom and dad have been a tremendous asset to our pack which makes this issue much more strenuous. I support and applaud their efforts not only as a family, but supporting parents of the pack.

 

Now, about the BSA website...your statement,

"... that is not necessarily clear because the word "agnostic" does not necessarily close the door. The fact that the bsalegal.org web site (a public relations tool of the BSA) says that "agnostics" are not permitted does not necessarily answer the question."

I thought it did answer the question about agnostics...

By definition, the person's beliefs are inconclusive and may or may not believe in a "higher power". For this person, they are more liberal in the context that they have no problem with calling something "God" in order to fulfill the requirement but is still not convinced that there is a supreme being. Now how do you "label" them?

 

Don't get me wrong, I agree with you, but I am only concerned with the Scout at this point.

 

 

 

[Scoutndad]

BW-

You have personally helped me a great deal today...

 

Now I need to question your last posting -

 

Why would you hold the Scout accountable for the actions of the parent?

I believe that the reason behind the "obligation" is to build a strong moral foundation rooted in the religious beliefs of the scout. Why would you deny a 10 yr old boy the right to earn a badge based on a value that has never been taught/learned in the house? (unless he openly recants religious values and conveys no belief or no conclusion of belief)

 

I am a person of strong faith and devotion and my quandry was not "cuz BSA said so" but the integrity and moral convictions of the organization and the values that I am teaching as a leader. So now I deny a boy his hard earned badge and show evidence that it was not my decision, but the BSA and his mother's? (rhetorical)

 

This might dramatize the issue a bit, but the general meaning is still there...

What would Christ do in my position?

[Bob White]

You need to stay focused scoutndad.

 

Advancement is not based on the value of the parents to the troop.

 

The advancement procedures for Webelos state that only the Webelos den leader signs the advancemnt, the ACM willingness is irrelevant.

 

This is not about whether the scout subscribes to his mothers lack of faith.

 

This is simply about completing the requirements for the advancement.

 

The scout must do his best to complete the requirement as it is written in the handbook. If the parent chooses to not allow him to do that then those are the parents wishes. You should not interfere but you should not pass him either. The mothers behavious will end this boy's scouting, not yours.

 

The scout and the parents need to make a decision. If they want to continue in scouting they will need to accept the obligations of scouting.

 

Give the parents the facts and let them make their own decision. You are not saying that you will remove him from the pack, simply that he has not completed the requirements for advancement.

 

BW

[Eamonn]

We could play on words for a very long time.

If you are not allowed to cover the requirement with the Lad then he can't pass the requirement.

You need to tell Mom that she can't have it both ways.

You also need to let her know that she needs to rethink where she stands in the BSA. I fail to see how she can have such strong feelings on your talking to the Lad and yet, stand up and recite a promise or an oath that contains "Duty To God".

Eamonn.

[ScoutMomAng]

There is no reason the boy could not do the first one of 8e that reads:

Attend the mosque, church, synagogue, temple, or other religious organization of YOUR choice; talk with oyr religious leader about your beliefs. Tell your family and your Webelos den leader what you learned.

 

The boys parents are his religous leaders. There is no reason that he can not tell his den leader what his beliefs are and what he learned. Obviously he is going to hear from his parents what his mother believes and what his father believes. If the boy knows that his dad was raised in a Christian home this might prompt him to ask questions, and possibly form his own opinion, whether his mother likes it or not. The den leader will not be talking to the boy about God or any other religions...only getting information as to what the boy has learned from his family what they believe.

 

As for the second part there is no reason the boy could not do the 5th choice which reads:

 

Under the direction of your religious leader, do an act of service for someone else. Talk about your service with your family and your Webelos den leader. Tell them how it made you feel.

 

Again, his religious leaders are his parents. No where does it say that this requirement has to be fulfilled by an ordained minister.

 

As for the first part of 8. Tell what you have learned about faith. A boy can have faith in a lot of things. Especially himself. Have him look up the definition of faith.

 

The sticky part is 8b...COMMIT Tell how these faith experiences help you live your duty to God. As an agnostic he would have to state something like, "If there is a God....."

 

and for him to Name one faith practice that he will continue to do in the future...again his statement would have to start out..."If there is a God....

 

Then he would have to tell what he learned about his beliefs...

 

If it will make his mother more comfortable have her sit with him when you interview him....she could stop the interview process whenever she felt uncomfortable.

 

I think that would satisfy the requirement but being an agnostic or an athiest is going to make it difficult continue into boy scouts.

 

JMHO

 

Angela

[Bob White]

While you are partially correct in your summary the sticking point appears to be the "explain to your Den Leader" If the parents do not allow the scout to do this then he has not met the requirements.

 

Faith in yourself does not meet the BSA's member obligation to Duty to God. The whole thrust of the the BSA position is that its members ahve belief in, and duty to, a higher power.

 

Soft soaping that view will only lead to greater disappointment for the scout further up the scouting trail. Better to make sure that he and his parents understand the obligation now.

[frank10]

BW - "The scout must do his best to complete the requirement as it is written in the handbook. If the parent chooses to not allow him to do that then those are the parents wishes. "

 

When I read Scoutdads original question I thought a one word answer would do... No. or maybe two words "no way".

How ever, after reading BW's post, I'm wondering...

 

If the boy is trying but must respect his parents wishes, has he done his best? and if so, is that enough?

 

At the boyscout level trying isn't enough (re: 1st class swim requirment), I don't know the cub program well enough to answer this one.