Lost Webelos I wants to come back NOW for Webelos II

[ScoutMomAng]

Hi all,

 

Hope you can help me out here. This might get a little confusing so please bear with me.

 

This year I am the Webelos II leader, as well as the Webelos I leader. Last year I was the Webelos I leader as well as the Webelos II leader. Last year I had a boy in my Webelos I den who was there every week. He earned all his badges that all the other boys earned and didn't miss even one! He was great! Very active boy, very good kid.

 

Anyway, something happened, and I'm not exactly sure but my guess is that some of the kids at school were teasing him because he was a "cub scout". (I know this is why I lost one boy for sure). Well, "Tommy" swears that wasn't it, he just needed more time to do other things and it seemed, to him, that scouts was taking up too much of his "free" time. I had been asking Tommy's dad everytime I seen him if Tommy was going to come back. Well, at recharter for this year, I told Tommy's dad that if he wanted to come back he needed to recharter with the rest of us, even though he wasn't participating in the den meetings. Which he never did.

 

Now, here we are, 2 weeks until crossover and I seen Tommy in the store with his dad. I asked him if he was staying busy. Tommy hesitated but then said no. I asked him why he didn't come back then when he realized he was missing it. He said his dad told him it was too late. His dad denies it but anyway, Tommy wants to come back. Lucky for him he only needs one activity pin to complete the badge requirements for his AOL, however, there is one sticky rule in there that says, "Be active in your den for 6 months". We are about to enter springbreak so it wouldn't be hard to catch Tommy up on the one activity pin requirement he needs but is there any "loop hole" to bypass the active in his den for 6 months?

 

How do boys that are "lone scouts" get by this requirement??? I would love for him to get his AOL and cross over but is it possible for that to happen? What about if I carried Webelos II meeting through the summer and cross him over in August???? He will just be starting the 6th grade in August, will it still be right??? Can it be done??? Help!!!! Pleaaaaaaase????

 

Thanks

Angela

[Oak Tree]

It seems like you probably already know the answer to your question. You want to give the boy the Arrow of Light even though there's one requirement that he's not able to complete. It would seem to be up to your conscience to decide whether you give him the award or not, but there wouldn't appear to be any technicality where you can claim he's met the requirement.

 

Lone Scouts are registered as such. According to scouting.org, "Lone Cub Scouts and Lone Boy Scouts may advance in rank in the same manner as do Cub Scouts and Boy Scouts in packs and troops. The only difference is that references to packs, dens, troops, and patrols do not apply." So they are specifically exempted.

 

Even if you met over the summer, you wouldn't hit six months until September, when the boy would be into sixth grade.

 

Maybe the boy should just join Boy Scouts and get a fresh start there.

 

Oak Tree

[Eamonn]

How old is the Lad?

Eamonn.

[SemperParatus]

If it were me, I would uphold the requirement and give the scout the choice of starting fresh in boy scouts in 2 weeks (assuming the age requirements are satisfied) or working over the summer on his AOL with your other Webelos den. Either way, he can't go wrong.

 

Leading two Webelos dens at the same time...wow!

[anarchist]

 

two Webelos dens?

 

april, may, june, july, august... seems to be a month shy even if you stretch the program and play pretty loose by the rules.

In june (around here anyways), he gets a piece of paper that says (one hopes) "advanced to the sixth grade" at that point he is a sixth grader...so summer work for AoL even if you had a full six months, would be bending the requirements to the point of Clintonian semantics...is that what you want to demonstrate to this lad?

 

The lad can crossover a join the Boy Scouts...but the AoL??

AoL is not the goal...building character and citizenship is...

 

I would rather work with the boy on lessons of; decision making and choices vs. consequences, Adults making judgement mistakes (his dad?...we all do), always asking for more information, setting goals for the future and following the rules...(good citizenship, sportsman?).

 

No Aol..It's not the end of the world, but what lessons do we teach by making exceptions and what will that tell some of his peers?

just asking?

 

two webelos dens... oh my gawd!

[NJCubScouter]

Well, wait a second. Before we all jump to conclusions here, I think we need an exact chronology of events, that is, in what MONTH AND YEAR did the following events occur:

 

When the boy turned 10 years old;

 

When he completed fourth grade (presumably this will be May or June 2004, just checking)

 

When, from your perspective, he ceased to be "active" (and I ask it that way because the BSA's definition of "active" may not, and probably doesn't, match your definition;

 

When (remember, month and year) the charter expired, so that he was no longer on the charter. I think this may be the most important question of all, in combination with his exact age.

 

What I am getting at, in case you are wondering, is the possibility that he may actually qualify for the "6 months" despite the way it appears.

 

[LPasn]

I would look at the record carefully and see if he was active for six months after the end of the fourth grade. If he was and he meets all other requirements, award the AoL and cross him over to Boy Scouts with his den. If he can complete the six months by the end of the fifth grade, wait until he completes the six months to award the AoL and cross him over at that time.

 

You are not the only DL to face this situation. I would like to hear how this is resolved.

[Eamonn]

First the important thing to do is find out what the Lad wants. Does he want to join his pals or work on the AOL?

If the AOL is something that He (Not anyone else!!) Really wants to complete, then I would do everything possible to help him reach this goal.And yes I have no problem playing loose with the rules. We are talking about a little fellow who made a bad choice, but now wants to correct it. This in my book is what we are about, helping Scouts make choices. I would view it differently if he was 17 and hadn't completed an Eagle Scout Rank requirement.

Eamonn.

[NJCubScouter]

Eamonn, I agree with everything you say. (In this thread, anyway. ) All I am trying to do is determine what the boy's options are, within the rules. For example, he may already be 11 years old. (In a school district with an October 1 cutoff date, almost exactly half of all boys will be 11 by the end of March of their fifth-grade year.) If that is the case, he can "cross over" with his den-mates (meaning, he can join a Boy Scout troop) even if he does not earn the Arrow of Light. At the same time, just picking out a date here, if he turned 10 in December 2003 (which is within the "normal range" given that he is now in fifth grade), and was on the charter for at least 6 months after that (regardless of when he stopped coming to meetings), I think he makes the 6 months, can earn the Arrow of Light and join a troop with his friends. (In that case he would qualify to join a troop under 2 of the 3 "joining options" AND qualify for the Arrow of Light.) Remember that the Arrow of Light requirements say be active for 6 months after turning 10 OR finishing the fourth grade, and it has been argued by a number of people in the forum that "active" means "registered." While I have been "undecided" on that issue in the past, I am ready to agree in this particular case because it permits the boy to achieve the maximum amount of recognition AND join a Boy Scout troop at the earliest opportunity, without a lot of noise from the finger-wagging rulebook-thumpers among us. (And yes, that last little comment does imply that if there were no other way, and the boy would be extremely disappointed by not getting the Arrow of Light, I would give it to him and send him on to a troop with his friends. That would not be my attitude if he were missing Activity Badges, but his den leader states that he is one short and can earn it in time. But to my way of thinking, the important thing is that he join a Boy Scout troop and have the opportunity to go to summer camp, and do some weekend camping with the troop before that. If accomplishing that means to ignore the fact that he temporarily quit, that is what I would do. He's back and ready to do Scouting, I say let him do it.)

[anarchist]

interesting Eamonn, Lpasn, I agree with the 'helping scouts make choices'...but....

 

If I read the post right the boy has not been active or registered for almost the entire scout year...Correct?

 

He wants to come back but is not in the pack now...correct?

 

And the other boys who have followed the rules, and made the right choices are told ...what?.... when the lad is allowed to receive the AoL...

The rules only apply to them?

Its only a patch...get over it?

We are being nice, friendly, kind ? Just to someone else....

We are showing the lad that he can do as he pleases and some kind soul will always be there to bail him out?

 

Not trying to be a hard nose here, but good gosh the boy is not and was not a registered scout for a full scout year (correct?)...

Why don't we just start telling the boys work real hard for your first webelos year...then mail it in for a year and you still get the top award in Cubbing?

 

What is wrong with saying "glad your back, here is the Boy Scout Application...Lets go visit some troops and get you working on the B.S. Promise"...etc. Crossver is in two weeks.

 

Note: Most Troops have a New Scout Program that starts for these boys in March-April and is geared to get them ready for the 'Brown Sea Programs' at summercamp...part of the 1st class-1st year effort...Summer camp reservations, payment etc. have deadlines, price penalties for late registration and many camps will not 'add' boys to troop rosters after certain deadlines...

 

Waiting to cross him over just for the AoL seems fraught with problems...he will be two or thee 'camps' or activities behind his pals, Depending on the size of the troop, and number of New Scout Patrols being formed, he might find himself placed in a patrol without any of his friends, he may (probably?) miss summer camp (putting him even further behind in the Boy Scout advancement schedule)...

 

I think it is more than a "to be (nice) or not to be (nice) question.

[ScoutMomAng]

Okay, here comes another long thread, I think.

 

Tommy was in Webelos I with me through June of last year. Kids here get out of school in the Midst of May. So in middle May he was technically in the 5th grade (if you want to look at it that way). We started up again in August (1st part of August) because that is when school starts. 1st day of School this year was August 5th. Tommy did not come to meetings at this time (this is when he stopped). I pushed and questioned and coaxed and everything I could to get him to come back....but nothing. He was still, however, on my roster because he was still chartered with us until the charter expired which was end of January. If he were to come back he would have March as a re-enter date (granted end of March but still March).

 

How old is Tommy??? He is 11 (just) and in the 5th grade (currently).

 

I worry about "giving" him AOL without the requirement of the 6 active months because my son will KNOW that wasn't fair. When him and all his friends worked hard to earn all 20 activity pins and I withheld the last activity pin until the VERY end so they could get all 20 pins and cross over with AOL. There is not an award these boys missed (with the exception of Tommy). Plus, what would I be teaching him???

 

So, I guess my question is....what exactly does "ACTIVE" mean? Just registered...or actively participating.

 

Last year (beginning of this year), due to circumstances, I had one boy with me for a month until we could do his AOL and crossover ceremony because we didn't have any pack meetings over the summer. The work he did with us was not pertaining to his AOL or his crossing over...they were just "fluff" pins for him, so he was in the 6th grade for 3 weeks but still in my Webelos den. He was told he didn't have to come but his younger brother felt more comfortable with him there, so he came...but I guess that is different, huh???

 

Two Webelos dens??? Yep...not that difficult. I LOVE it!!! I will do Webelos again this upcoming year even though I will not have a Webelos child. My oldest moves on to Boy Scouts and my youngest is going to be a Wolf! Working with Webelos boys is so much fun!!! By the way...I am a Girl Scout Leader of 40 girls also! And.....I work full time! Saint????? NO WAY...Crazy???? Probably.

 

As far as the paper that says he is advanced to the 6th grade, Anarchist, how is this different from letting a Bear work on Bear requirements over the summer as long as he hasn't completed them? I read, somewhere, in another post on this site, that a "boy can work on the requirements (for example Bear) as long as he does not work on requirements for the next level (in the Bears case, Webelos). So why couldn't a Webelos II work on the final requirements for AOL as long as he wasn't working on any Boy Scout activities? Just asking???

 

Angela

 

 

[anarchist]

 

 

 

ScoutMomAng,

 

1)- BSA describes active as having paid his money...

 

2) - "how is this different from letting a bear work..."?

 

'guess cause you are doing the 'letting'... Cub scouting is grade and age secific...Tigers-1st, Wolves-2nd, Bears-3rd,

Webbelos I -4th, and Webelos II- 5th.

 

The Bear Cub Scout Rank book ends with 'when you have completed the 3rd grade or are 10 years old you can join a webelos den..."

So unless it has changed in the last few years working over summer for bear rank sign-offs is... er....problematic at best and maybe just wrong at worst....most loose no sleep over it.

 

In a Bears case, he is in the 4rd grade when he passes the 3nd...unless you believe in an educational purgatory...

Technically he should begin working on the Webelos 'stuff' the summer between 3rd grade and 4th...After all he has passed the 3rd grade...

I guess if you believe in ..."what the meaning of 'is' - is" type arguements, you could wiggle some room if his birthday is delayed...

 

But if you look at the bulk of the Scout programs in this country most Webelos IIs become Boy Scouts in or around the early spring...sort of leads you to believe that BSA feels the boys should be done by the end of the school year at the latest doesn't it?

 

In our Pack we leave the Webelos II chairs 'in place and empty' for the Pack meeting after cross-over (April) and At the Start of the May Pack meeting each den 'proudly' moves to the next 'level'... Webelos I up to the Webelos II chairs and Bears to the Web I seats on around the room. They still work on the current ranks and extra activities but that stops when school is out. Mid June is the end the school year and work done in the summer is geared to the next rank...

 

BSA BOY SCOUT JOINING REQUIREMENTS- age eleven or finished fifth grade or AoL...(for young over-achievers?)

 

He is already eleven...if he can make the 6 months by the end of school...(but it sounds like now, that that is not the issue...he was "on the books'... right?) If he visits the Boy Scout activities during this time and has completed the other AoL requirements he gets his patch...'can't add, can't subtract from the requirements...but if he has not done them, he has not earned the award...

 

I have always thought being fair meant fair to all participants in an activity, and not being 'more fair' to one who has strayed slightly...most will say its your call, but as long as he has all the sign-offs; he has 'earned' the award...

 

Good luck and thank you for all you do!

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Oak Tree]

I've seen this debated on the Boy Scout forums more often, where we hear that 'active' means having paid up. That seems like an obvious abuse of the English language, and besides that, it doesn't even apply here. The Webelos book does define active a bit more. "'Active' means having good attendance, ..." Now, you can define on your own what 'good attendance' is - the book doesn't give a percentage of 50% or anything like that. But it's hard to see how 0% could be considered good attendance. I'd say the absolute minimum to be considered active in a given month would be to attend at least one activity that month. But maybe that's just me.

 

Councils do play fast and loose with the Cub Scout age cutoffs. We're encouraged to recruit Tigers while they're still in kintergarten. We go to Camporees in April and are told the boys can work on items from their next rank up. So you're right, you could let him work on things through the summer. I've never run into any Cub Scout Police, so it's going to come down to your judgement. If you could get six months in, sure, it would be possible to count it.

 

But really, does this boy want to stick around in Webelos for six months when he could be in Boy Scouts? And as you say, do you really want your son to see you maneuvering around the rules?

 

Oak Tree

 

[ScoutNut]

I think that Oak Tree said it best. Why force this boy to wait 6 months or fudge requirements for an award? What is the point? It certainly will not benefit the boy.

 

This boy is currently eligible to join a Boy Scout Troop right now, without earning the AOL. Tell him & his family that if he really wants to get back into Scouting to look for a Boy Scout Troop to join.

 

IMO, if you do it any other way you may very well lose the boy again & this time it could be permanent.

[anarchist]

Oak Tree,

 

don't get me wrong...I hartily disagree with the 'he paid he is active' but that is what most Councils and National will say...

Our troop uses 50% as a goal with the SM being the final decision maker based on what was going on that may have made a lad miss 50%...

(but I will tell you that we have a BoR over ruled on an Eagle board that found a boy who was AOL for 1 1/2 years (and had a list of problems with his eagle project a mile long) they did care about anything - he was a name on the charter and the SM had signed him off....end of discussion give him his eagle...)

 

given my druthers in a perfect world I would define active the same way I would be able to define beauty or a good hunting dog..."I know 'it' when I 'see' it!"

 

And I think most of us, looking in the mirror, would admit... that just being registered is a far cry from being active...(that dog won't hunt!)

nuff said!