At what point do you decide to let go? (long, sorry)

[TundraHawk]

When do you realize that it is time to move on and change packs? I have been struggling with this decision for several months and keep holding onto our current pack, more out of guilt than anything. I so want to see this pack succeed but know I cannot do it alone, and it cannot succeed with only one or two dedicated volunteers. We have such a great group of boys, and they deserve an active and strong program. I feel that if I step down, I am not only giving up but failing them.

 

I've been heavily involved with our pack for nearly a year, and it is going down like the Titanic. Currently I serve as a committee member (for two positions) and assist my husband, who is a den leader. Inadvertently, I've found myself at the center of pack communications - if someone needs something or has a question (committee members, den leaders, and parents) they turn to me.

 

Here's just a sampling of what's going on:

- We've lost our charter. We are in the midst of finding another, but it isn't locked in yet.

- Our CC is away for the next few months, and no one was put in place to fill in for the CC. He has been our main leadership for the pack (see below).

- We have no Cubmaster and haven't since the beginning of the school year (hence no supervision/guidance for the den leaders, and our pack meetings dismal).

- We've lost a number of scouts in all the dens, except the one that my husband leads.

- The leaders for one of our dens stepped down yesterday.

- There is very little to no interest from the parents to volunteer.

- Most of volunteers that we do currently have are so engrossed in their own scouting job that they dont look to see the bigger picture or dont care about other problems in the pack if those problems dont impact their son or their job within the pack. If something goes wrong, a few will place the blame on someone else and won't take responsibilities for their actions. We arent a team just a bunch of individuals doing our own thing.

 

When I read over the above, it seems like only a fool would stay with the pack. I truly worry for the pack if my family leaves they would be minus another DL, ADL, committee member (and two of the most experienced folks in the pack). The CC even said that the pack would fold if we left. As much as I would like to think that his statement is a gross exaggeration, I think it holds some truth.

 

If anyone has any advice or words of wisdom, I would love to hear them.

 

[SemperParatus]

You need to get your District and Council professionals involved to determine if there is any hope for resurrecting this pack. It sounds dead to me, but for the dens continuing to operate. If neither you nor any of the other adults are prepared to commit to this salvage operation, then its time to scuttle the ship and move on. Your great group of boys are being done a disservice by not being provided a vibrant pack program - they may be better off somewhere else as well.

[TundraHawk]

Thanks, Semper.

 

Both my husband and I are dedicated to the pack and for doing what it takes to turn it around, but we also know that we can't do it alone. Although council is aware of several of our problems, I don't think they know the depth of them.

 

I appreciate your insight.

 

 

[SemperParatus]

TundraHawk,

 

I keep coming back to your message because I feel your pain. You have a tremendous sense of obligation to the boys in your pack. The more I look at this...you are basically in a position of starting a new pack - the old one died with the charter. Now, the good news is that you already have boys, some leaders, probably a PWD track, a flag, some money, etc. Wow! - that is so much more than others that are starting a pack fresh. What you need are some dedicated adult leaders to make things happen - starting with a CC and a CM. Whether you know it or not, you are starting to fall into the CC position now - maybe you know that but don't want to see it. Your group needs the professional help that your District exec can provide. Talk to him/her/her about all the problems and get him to help you. Have a mandatory parent meeting to lay out all the problems, work hard on the recruitment effort, get a new charter partner...and throughout the whole time make scouting fun for the boys. It will not be easy...in fact, it will be VERY hard. But you do have a lot of things going for you already, the biggest of which is your dedication.

 

And welcome to the forum.

[Eamonn]

Watching a unit die is never a good thing.

District types are all well and good, but even they can't walk on water or change the water into wine.

For a unit to survive people have to want too.

I think when you say that you lost your charter, you are talking about the Chartering Organization?

I don't know how things are in your area? But we have never had a real big problem finding organizations that are willing to come on board. Like a lot of things in Scouting we have CO's that are good, bad and a few that are really ugly. I would think that your DE along with members of the District Membership Committee, will be able to really help with this.

The Pack has two groups of adults. The group that works with the Dens and the Committee. Both these groups need leadership. People that are not there for whatever reason can not provide the leadership that is needed. It makes no never mind how good someone once was, if they aren't there they are of no use. Let them go and make up your mind to move on.

The District types do not have a reserve pool of people waiting on the side line to jump in as and when they are needed. Every once and a while a stray Scouter comes along, but this is rare. You and the members of the pack need to face up to this.

It would seem to me that YOU are the person to take on the position of Pack Committee Chair. Heck!! You are doing the job anyway!!

Once you have got that all cleared up. You need to see about selecting a new Cubmaster. You along with the other Committee members need to sit down away from the Den Leaders and have a brain storming meeting. List each and every name that anyone comes up with. There are no wrong answers or wrong people.Spend about 15-20 minutes listing these people. Don't get into any discussion about them. If you do you will be there all night!! I would think that you should have a list of about 20 names. Then go over the list placing the names in order. The order should be who the committee thinks would do the best job first. Not the person you think will say yes first.

From your list of about 20 you should be able to discard about half of the names. You now have ten people to ask.

Find a copy of the Cubmaster Job Description. Have all the members of the pack committee read it. If there are things that are special to your pack add them.

Now comes the hard part - The Ask.

Select two people from the pack committee, one who knows the the first ranking person on your list. Phone him or her and ask if they would be free for you both to visit them at home. Try for a good time, avoiding meal times and other busy times. Armed with the job description visit #1. Impress on him or her that he has been selected because he is the best person for the job and that you think he is the ideal person for the job. Be ready to answer any questions about training, uniform, time it will take. Try and get a firm answer then and there, if need be plead your case to his or her spouse. If the answer is a no, offer them another position either on the committee or as a leader. Then move on down the list.

It might be that the person you select is already a Den Leader. In that case select a new Den Leader using the same method.

If you go through all ten names and didn't get a yes, it would seem that no one really wants there to be a pack and you are just wasting your time and effort, at this point throw in the towel and move on.

Please believe me asking people this way does work.

Eamonn.

[TundraHawk]

Semper -- thanks so much for the welcome. I've been lurking for a while and feel a bit awkward that my first post is a vent/plea for help. Y'all, however, have so much experience and wisdom in regards to scouting that I felt I could turn to this group. Although I'd be considered a newbie to scouting by many (only 1 1/2yrs as a volunteer), I hope to be able to contribute more to the board in the future.

 

Your posts have really helped to put things into perspective. I never thought of our finding a new CO as starting anew, and we definitely have an advantage in regards to having a good base of boys, funds, equipment, etc.

 

We have our pack committee meeting next week. Our district commissioner is supposed to be in attendance, and I'm hoping our DE will be able to attend and give us guidance as well (if not at this meeting, then in the near future).

 

At our Jan pack meeting, I'm hoping to talk to the parents (away from the boys) about our situation, while the boys are busy with games that the den leaders will oversee. Ideally, I'd like to set up a parent's meeting on a separate night, but I know the turnout will be higher on pack night.

 

You mentioned me taking the role of CC. Actually, our current CC has asked my husband on several occasions to approach me on taking the position. I did say yes, but then our CC left without saying anything more about it...I guess he changed his mind and decided to keep the position?? Strangely, right before our CC left he nominated me for CM and told me that I was a unanimous choice with our committee, only for me to find out that NONE of our committee members knew about this nomination, let alone a unanimous vote. (another topic for another time)

 

I have no problems taking on a leadership role but would definitely feel more comfortable in a behind-the-scenes role, perhaps as CC. The thought of getting up to run a pack meeting makes my stomach turn inside out. LOL

 

 

Eamonn -- My wording concerning our charter did sound sort of strange, didn't it? (Reading it now I see myself running around looking for our "lost" charter) Our pack is one that is being affected by the recent ruling involving the ACLU and military sponsorship of scouting units. We have a few groups who are interested in chartering us, which is wonderful news. Right now our paperwork is stuck in military red tape, but it will get figured out in the end I am sure.

 

Your approach to selecting leadership is spot on. Unfortunately, in the past our pack hasn't selected its leaders...simply accepted anyone who volunteered. This has hurt us quite a bit. Our problems are coupled with the fact that later in the year nearly 100% of our dads will be deployed overseas. Although a few moms are willing to help, most see scouting as a "guy thing" and are reluctant to lend a hand. I want to impress upon them that they are valuable to our pack, and that we will not have a pack if most (if not all) are not willing to step up and help in some way.

 

 

[fotoscout]

This has to be one of the most real posts Ive ever seen here. As SP said, I feel your pain!

 

I am an advocate of doing what it takes to make the pack strong rather than bailing out to another pack. Youve done your time trying to build the pack, and I suspect youve let the other leaders know that you cannot go on being a one man show. It appears that they have not picked up the ball and accepted additional responsibilities. At this point you would have nothing to be ashamed of by leaving the pack.

 

My esteemed friend Eamonn gives some good advice. He is synopsizing the BSA method of recruiting adults. Its a good method, but you need help in doing it, and it is very time consuming. Also, in the position you are in, you could not cry wolf 10 times then go back to the till for another 10.

 

Have you had the heart to heart with all your leaders and committee people as a group? Have you had the heart to heart with all the parents? At some point the group discussion must take place where you tell everyone, Folks, if you dont step up and take some responsibility for the Packs operation, there will be no Pack, and no Cub Scouts for your Children. On their own, they may figure out that they can move to another pack, but I would not provide that information. This method does work. It is not an easy discussion to have because it makes everyone very uncomfortable. But it very clearly gets the point across.

 

There is of course another way to look at this. Some people are givers, and some are takers. You and the other leaders are givers, everyone else is a taker. The takers have sucked the life out of your pack. Some because they were problematic, but most by virtue of being passive, very passive. If you close down the pack, many of those takers are going to show up at the next pack and possibly drive it into the ground.

 

Just my two cents.

 

[Backpacker]

I agree with Eamonn and others here. If the pack is to survive it has to be a decision of the pack leaders. One person alone can not make it happen. If you can motivate the others to salvage the unit then by all means give it a 110% effort, otherwise let it die and move on to a better organized pack. As the old saying goes you can't get blood out of a turnip!

[scoutldr]

Any unit that would "die" if one person leaves is in serious trouble. It is the Unit Commissioner's job to anticipate and diagnose problems like this and work with the Committee to implement change. Call your District Commissioner and get him/her involved....soon.

[Fuzzy Bear]

I want to second Eamonn's use of the BSA's method of Selecting Unit Leaders. SP also shared part of the answer, which is to communicate the problem to the DE and DC. You can find a copy of the procedure in the CSL Training Manual.

 

I also want to clarify your position, as I see it.

 

People are calling you to do something. You accept these things because you feel good about being asked, so you do it all. You come here and ask us what to do because you are overwhelmed.

 

Here is a suggestion: Do your duty to the one position and the one year you accepted for that job. Hold to your responsibilities and do not accept the jobs of others or their responsibilities during that year. The reason for this is because it takes a group of people to run a Pack. The "group" is the key to saving the Pack not doing the jobs of others. Doing it all by yourself is not healthy, fun, or correct. Holding to this principle allows others to share the work. You doing their job is irresponsible on your part and not saving the Pack, which is a different perspective.

 

Now, if the group decides that they want to save the Pack and they request your assistance in that task, then you can accept the duty to work with the group to find others to run the Pack. Once that is done, either positively or negatively, you are through with that job or that Pack.

 

FB

 

 

[TundraHawk]

fotoscout, we have yet to have a heart to heart with the leaders/committee or the parents. I plan to have a serious heart to heart with our leaders this next week. The problem with our volunteers (not including my husband or myself) is that they don't see a problem with our pack...they feel that things are running fine. One of our most active volunteers has said it would be best if the pack just folded.

 

The meeting I want to have with the parents at the end of the month will be the discussion you mentioned in your post (ie, without everyone's help there will be no pack for your scouts). I think the reaction I'll get from a majority of the parents will be positive. I have a good relationship with many of them, and I know scouting is very important to most of their boys.

 

In regards to recruiting adults...I think I'll be able to encourage some along with our parent meeting, but I know that won't be enough. If anything, I'm hoping to plant a seed with them in regards to volunteering. My husband was a military recruiter, and the BSA method is very familiar to how he did his job.

 

FB - thanks for your perspective. I don't know if I'm overwhelmed per se, but I am getting incredibly frustrated. I haven't been doing other people's jobs but have picked up (some) of the slack where we don't have volunteers in order for the program to continue...mentoring the den leaders when needed (CM job), organizing a parent meeting for a leaderless den to find new leaders (CC or CM?). My husband (a DL) has, on several occasions, organized pack meetings. These are just a few examples.

 

We could have kept strictly in our lanes, but if someone didn't step in to the above situations it would be detrimental to the program. I'm hoping I'm making sense. I know we could just not do something (like organize a pack meeting), and then that month we'd fail to have one. Yes, that might make a few parents sit up and take notice, but it is ultimately hurting the boys.

 

 

 

[Oakville Tim]

First of all, good luck!! It's a truly great effort you obviously are making.

 

I wonder if one of your parents is good with desktop publishing.

 

And, if someone from your Pack has a handful of quality digital images of your Pack activities throughout this school/Scout year. Could be inside, could be outside, could be from the same event, etc. Ideally, these images would include Scouts from all your age ranks.

 

A sort-of 'SOS' (Save Our Scouts) flier, with images of their own sons doing cool Scout stuff, could be presented at your heart-to-heart with your DLs and other parents. Maybe these fliers could be made to stand up, a la a tabletop decoration.

 

Short cutlines could accompany each image, such as: 'Remember how proud you were when your son helped bring in the national colors at a Pack meeting?' And, 'Remember how proud you were of your son during Scouting for Food?' Things like that.

 

And then you could add a short, heartfelt tag line, such as: 'Please help us keep our sons' Cub Scouts program alive!'

 

I have to think that a visual image of 'Little Bobby' growing in Scouts and doing cool Scout stuff, presented in front of his parents, might bring more of a response than verbal pleas from dedicated Scouters such as you and your husband!

 

Again, best wishes to you!!

[Eamonn]

Many of the ideas here are good. However there is safety in numbers and asking a group is never as effective as going face to face.

When OJ joined the pack, I was hiding on the Council Charter a member of the properties committee. I was busy owning and operating a couple of small restaurants. Joining the pack had been his idea and I was happy to leave Cubbing to him and his mother.

We joined the year that was to be the year that everyone: Cubmaster, Assistant Cubmaster along with a couple of Den Leaders were moving on or moving out.

Her That Must Be Obeyed, had gone and got herself signed up as a Committee Member, mainly because she and the Unit Commissioner, had done leader training together before way back when.

I sat at the back of the hall during Pack Meetings. I heard the pleas for help I heard the threats that the pack would close. I sat through it all. I didn't budge. I sat firm, my hand didn't go up. Even when the check for the money that each Cub Scout had in his account came, I seen that these guys were serious about closing the pack. Still I did nothing.

What turned me in the end was when the Assistant District Commissioner Cub Scouts arrived on my door step and asked me. I had no place to run, no place to hide, no other parents to make funny faces at. She had me, she got me and I'm still around.

I know one on one recruiting works - Just ask my accountant!!

Eamonn

[jens3sons]

TundraHawk,

May I suggest asking the VFW or Elk's Lodge in your area to be your charter. Some PTA's and schools are still allowed to charter as well. Any businesses like restaurants may be able to as well. You mentioned you lost your charter, but was your charter also where your meetings were held? If you still have a meeting place, then it shouldn't be that hard to get a business or one of the other things I mentioned to charter you.

Also, if you have time, arichardson71 posted a question starting out "I need some advice..." and there are some replies, including my own that might be beneficial to you as well! The best of luck to you and your pack!

jens3sons

[TundraHawk]

Tim -- Thanks for the idea. I'm not exactly a whiz at desktop publishing, but I could probably crank something out if no one else is to be found. I have something (sort of) similar but on a MUCH larger scale. For our school recruiting night I used a trifold poster board and displayed a number of photos that I took of our scouts during our crossover and at summer camp (the regatta pics and closeups of our boys learning archery/bb shooting really got a lot of attention from potential new scouts!)

 

Eamonn - you're exactly right about safety in numbers. One is very unlikely to have parents jumping up and down begging to be volunteers during his/her groupwide plea for help. One reason I want to have a group talk with our parents is just to present them with the reality of the situation, which I think they know nothing about --- we are in great need of volunteers and, come autumn, the need will be even greater (when our dads deploy overseas). I want to express to them that our unit can also serve as a great support tool for not only the boys but the families during this difficult time.

 

My husband and I are going to make a concerted effort to recruit most of our help one on one. I'd much rather be in the position of the committee recruiting folks than having to take anyone who is willing to help.

 

jen - thanks for the suggestions. Our local VFW and American Legion have both offered to charter us. Currently our pack is speaking with a club that is on our base. As of right now, we are able to keep our meeting place, even though it was originally granted to us by our old CO (it's a fairly complicated issue). I've been keeping up with arichardson71's post, and it certainly has been helpful. Thanks!