Girls in Cubscouts?

[ScoutNut]

6 year old kindergarten Tigers, girls in Webelos. Is there a full moon or something??

 

What you folks don't seem to understand is that you CAN NOT do whatever you want and still expect to be a chartered unit of BSA. You CAN NOT simply say this person is registered in our Pack and make it the truth.

 

First - The Pack's Charter Organization could loose it's charter.

 

Second - You, and yes, I mean you PERSONALLY Den3702, along with all Unit Leaders, could possibly be sued for everything you have in this world if something were to happen to this girl at a Pack/Den activity. This girl is NOT a registered member of BSA and neither she or any of you are covered or protected by BSA insurance.

 

It does not matter what your Webelos Den roster says. This girl is NOT a member of BSA and can not be until she is old enough to join a Venturing Crew!

 

If she wants to join Cubs so bad have her parents join a Scouts Canada pack. Canadian Scouting is co-ed.

 

[tma-1]

Some people have made excellent points about the lack of insurance coverage for improperly-registered youth, and I agree with them. Cub Scouting is an *active* program, so us volunteer leaders need all the protection we can get (especially since we're all broke from buying our uniforms!)

 

However, I'd like to highlight another reason why it's bad mojo to have a girl in Cub Scouts - it's not designed for them!

 

The BSA has paid a lot of money to a lot of people who have a lot of letters behind their names to develop a quality, challenging, and age-appropriate program for BOYS. One look at the youth protection materials (such as the excellent BSA video "It Happened to Me") makes it obvious that the BSA took many factors into account when developing their program, but that gender wasn't one of them!

 

Although it is debatable whether it's due to biology or social conditioning, most of us would say there's a big difference between boys and girls in the USA, even at this early age. One glance at the television commercials on kid's cable will confirm this - Hot Wheels for boys and Bratz for girls. While there are always exceptions, in my experience it is rare to find a girl who would place "learning to use a pocketknife" in her personal top-ten list.

 

When I read this thread, my first reaction was to think that the parents or the Pack leadership had some sort of sexual-equality agenda to advance, and my evil inner-conservative was pounding on the door of my self-restraint. However, I'm guessing this is similar to a situation I see all the time in my Pack - this is probably a family who sees a wonderful program for their son, and they want to get the daughter a piece of the same action. I don't know about anywhere else, but in my neck of the woods, it is harder to find a quality Girl Scout unit than a quality Cub Scout Pack, making this desire very undertandable.

 

However, I feel these parents are doing their daughter a disservice, especially if she is of Webelos age. That's the age group where most girls start advancing in maturity over the same-aged boys (and we boys never do catch up, do we?). She's going to wake up one camping trip and realize she's with a bunch of peers who feel that fart jokes are the height of classy humor.

 

Hey, If I'm wrong, and we have some sort of Amazon warrior-princess in the making, I apologize. However, I'm sure there's a lot of things that a girl needs at this age that she *won't* get from Cub Scouts.

 

Good luck to you, Den3702!

[Den3702]

Thank all of you so much for your replies and support. I must say this whole situation is giving me a new learning curve in Scouting!

Last night's Den meeting was just shy of a lynch mob. I pulled the parents out of the room to let them rant without having the Bears distracted. I am lucky to have a wonderful Assistant Den Leader.

I am trying to sort through all of the heresy and get down to the facts.

The Pack roster copy I received is not from Council. It was sent to me from the Committee Chairperson. I emailed the CM to get his response to the allegations he did this AFTER Council already said no and refused her registration. Hopefully he will reply soon.

 

Uncleguinea; I heard that Council refused her application but I have not been able to confirm this as of yet. There is no ambiguity with the first name she has.

 

ScoutNut, yup the liability placed on all of us is a big consideration here.

 

tma-1 that is my point exactly, we are not designed to include girls in the BSA program. We have several Girl Scout Troops in the local area that are actually more active than some of the Cub Scout Dens. I wish I could have heard from this young lady as to her reasoning for wanting to join Cub Scouts.

 

This situation just stinks and the way that it has been handled appears rather sneaky and underhanded.What message does this send to our Cubs? That you just ignore the rules and do what you want? I think not. It was decided with my Den parents last night that if our Pack is going to pursue this ridiculous notion, we will leave the Pack. I am wondering how this is going to affect the Pack in just having to deal with this. A petition has been started to get the consensus of the other parents.

 

There may come a day when co-ed Scouting is available in the US. Today is not that day. To just force against the tide without having the support and system designed to embrace a co-ed situation was foolish.

 

Falling off my horse now..thanks for letting me vent off some frustration.

[NJCubScouter]

Den3702, thank you for clarifying that the roster on which the girl's name appears is a unit-level document and not the official charter roster from council. I think a number of people here were a bit surprised and concerned at the idea that the council had actually accepted the girl's registration. I was wondering whether the girl's first name was "Terry" or "Pat" (shades of Saturday Night Live) or something else that would not call attention to itself when the council registrar looked at it. I think this situation also points out the extent to which councils have to rely on the unit-level volunteers to do their jobs. How does the council registrar really know that "Terry" or "Pat" or any other name is a boy? They really don't. They are relying on the Cubmaster not to sign an application for membership for someone who is not eligible. (The same also applies to age eligibility, but with age the parent has to affirmatively write the child's birth date, and this provides information that the council registrar (or his/her computer) can use to independently check the child's eligibility. Of course people can lie on the application form, but that's a different subject.)

[FScouter]

It doesn't seem like the arguing amongst your pack leadership and parents is going to result in any agreement. Those in favor of admitting the girl simply don't understand that a pack cannot make that kind of decision. A petition or consensus means nothing. To pursue that gives the proponents the idea that the girl can be admitted if there is enough support. The fact is that even if the pack unanimously wanted this, it cannot happen. This is not a decision a pack is empowered to make. A pack has no juristiction at all.

 

It might help to have a third party authority such as the district commissioner or the actual district executive address your committee meeting and explain the rules. Or perhaps the council registrar could write a letter on council letterhead explaining the rules.

 

[Grumpy]

Todat was our Scout-0-rama. For the first time I noticed a woman with an OA pocket flap patch and sash. I never thought about it before. 20 years ago when I was a Scoutmaster, there were not many women in Scouting above the Cub level. Now there are, I just never saw a woman in the OA or really thought about it. Of course, I am okay with it, just never saw it before.

[Eamonn]

Her That Must Be Obeyed, has a brother who is about 3 years younger than she is. I can't remember her Dad ever talking about being a Boy Scout or how he became involved in Scouting.

Both of her parents got the Scouting bug. Her Mom became a Den Mother and Dad was Cubmaster, then Scoutmaster. Both parents earned the District Award Of Merit.

Boy Scouting took over their life. Family vacations were limited due to her Dad having to take the troop to camp. Her That Must Be Obeyed, knew all the Cub Scout stuff, about as much Boy Scout stuff as someone who stood on the sidelines for years could pick up. She never wanted to be a girl Scout. She was in the Rainbow Girls for a while, mainly because her Grandmother was a past Matron in the Eastern Star. When she was old enough she got involved with Day Camp and then went on to Cub Scout Leader training.I'm not sure if this was due to a great love of Scouting or because she had the hots for a young new DE!! At least he was young and new back then. Everything was fine till I came along with my sexy knees. He the young DE is now an old Program Director. When I was grounded at Gatwick Airport and missed my engagement party, he being as cheap as he still is used my party and my cake to become engaged to his now wife. We are all the very best of pals.

Being the daughter of a Scouting family must be really hard.

However, my pal Mike has been really active in Scouting for years. His wife complained about never seeing him. He has two girls the youngest has just became the President of a new Crew, now Mike's wife is saying that it was bad enough to just lose one, now they are both gone.

Eamonn.

[Vicki]

Responding to women in OA, which I realize is off-thread, sorry. Grumpy, two of the three female leaders in our troop have been elected to OA - I come up for eligibility and possible election this summer (guess who #3 is?). Same requirements as the guys and youth, obviously. The other ladies involved with the troop just aren't as active and don't camp.

 

As for girls in Cub Scouts - interesting concept but, as you've heard already from others more knowledgeable than I, not even remotely a possibility at this point. Haven't any of these people with boys who've gone through WeBeLos looked around at a PaCao or Camporee and noticed that there aren't any girls?

 

Vicki

[torribug]

There are SO many other youth programs out there that use scouting methods, I really have to wonder if there is some kind of hidden agenda behind the parents pushing to sign the young lady up for cubs. I personally can understand why a parent would not want to put their daughter in girl scouts - it is NOT an equal program, and most units are now secular (in my area, anyway, and also according to what I have heard from others on different scouting lists). However, right off the top of my head, I can name several appropriate programs that the family could check into.

 

American Heritage Girls (they use a lot of BSA principles and Godliness) - this is a new movement, and may require organizing leadership and finding a charter organization, but it is a growing program.

 

Coed programs would be:

Campfire

4-H

Young Marines

Sea Cadets

Young Rangers

Civil Air Patrol

YMCA Adventure Guides

 

Just my $.02

 

BUG

[evmori]

I'm having a real problem trying to understand what these people don't understand! No girls in Cub Scouts! Simple! If someone wants to violate that then I would have to question their ability to be a leader of any type in Cub Scouts!

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[BPwannabe@137]

I have three girls and one son (whom is refered to as "the boy"-sorry too much Simpsons).

 

My good friend is a cubmaster in England. He told me how it is coed and works well. I pondered the thought. Ran through the program. Even ran some "table top" exercises.

My results...

 

My daughters are happy in girl scouts. They like socializing with other girls. They like talking to female leaders when they are facing the issues of growing up. Although I offered to be a leader, they don't want Dad around. They wish they could do more cool things like the boy scouts and work with the leaders to get those results.

 

The boy and his den buddies like girls, like playing with girls, may even like kissing girls (hope not). They even like it when their older girl scout sisters helped out at day camp. But they do not want girls in cub scouts. The boy summed it up by saying, "sometimes we boys just want to be with other boys".

 

Sorry, the program is designed for little boys. It works. Girl scouts are designed for little girls. It works too. I wish people would just stopping living to buck the system.

 

Oh, and before someone says, "it works in England", last time I checked, we were not English. Not an insult, just a fact.

[tma-1]

BPwannabe, I think you hit it on the head when you said "the program is designed for little boys. It works. Girl scouts are designed for little girls. It works too."

 

The programs in the UK and Australia are coed, and I'm sure they work very well mainly because they are *designed* as coed programs. I've never read any

[Chuck597]

I have been in scouting for 30 years. I started as a cub scout in 1976. Got my Eagle in 1988, and just became Cubscout leader this year. The ONLY girls in the scouting program were the mom's. That is the way scouting has been ever since it has started. That is the way it sould be now. Boyscout's last time i have checked is a male not a female program. The girlscouts have a great program and i am not knocking them but KEEP GIRLS OUT of the boyscout's they dont belong in all levels of out scouting program. We have enough problems to deal with. Call me old school but that is the way I feel boy need a place to be away from the girls of this world. When boys get in to the boyscouts it is the girls they date that take them away from the program anyway. So let the boy's be boy's for as long as possible.

[Newbie Den Leader]

Cub Scouts is designed to meet the physical, mental, and emotional issues of young boys. Young girls have the Girl Scouts and other organizations that address their physical, mental, and emotional needs.

 

There is no reason to reinvent the wheel.

[Cheerful Eagle]

I'm a registered leader in both organizations, and coincidentally ;-) a mother of two boys and a girl.

 

My daughter is really happy to be identified as a Girl Scout, but as she has grown older (now finishing 3rd grade) she has frequently asked why the Girl Scouts don't do as much "fun stuff" as the Cub Scouts.

 

Girl Scouts have 1 campout a year -- no familiy, please.

Cub Scouts have AT LEAST 2 family camp weekends each school year.

 

Girl Scouts have holiday sing alongs and ice skating parties.

Cub Scouts have the Pinewood Derby and Snow Play Day.

 

Girls Scouts have (generally) single age/grade units. No family involvement.

Cub Scouts get their dens together every month and share with their families.

 

Here's my idea....

As a GS troop leader, I could blend what I've learned from being a Webelos leader with the expectations of a Junior Girl Scout troop -- up the bar scoutcraft-wise.

As a Cub Master, why couldn't I invite the GS troop to our pack meetings, if not every one, at least periodically? Since a pack isn't "boy led", I think it could work and not be disruptive to either program.

 

What do ya'll think?