Pocketknives for Cubs

[Mike_Fossler]

In the Bear den where I am coleader, we are currently working on the Whittling Chip. One of the moms in the den asked me about what age is appropriate for kids to handle pocketknives. I'm not really happy with the answer I gave her, so I'd thought I'd present it to the group.

 

I guess the BSA position is that boys that are 8-9 years old can handle a pocketknife once they have taken the training. What has been your experience? Are boys this age able to handle the responsibility?

 

 

Thanks,

 

Mike

[Fat Old Guy]

Do you worry about 8 year olds getting kitchen knives and doing wrong with them? I've carried a pocket knife since I was a Cub Scout and never did anything wrong.

 

I'd let them show everyone their new knives so the newness wears off. Then they should know that the knife stays in the pocket or clipped to the belt unless its being used.

 

 

[kenk]

I just finished up the year as a Den Leader for Bear Cub Scouts. Here are my thoughts.

 

First, for most boys of Cub Scout or Webelos age knives should be controlled by parents and "checked out" to the boy for use. I would strongly suggest that parents closely monitor use of the knife when it is checked out.

 

I would suggest that boys get plenty of practice whittling on several pieces of ivory soap with a good heavy butter knife just to get a feel for controlling a blade. They will almost certainly cut themselves when using real knives, but you might as well put that off as long as possible.

 

I had my share of cuts from learning to use knives properly, and certainly remember having my Boy Scout pocketknife accidently close on my fingers. The nastiest cuts were on the back & side of my left pointer finger from "misses" when I was holding something with my left hand, cutting with my right hand, and not watching where the blade was going to go when it slipped. I also remember letting my hand slip forward over the blade and cutting the inside of my right pointer finger.

 

While many (most?) might suggest the boys acquire a Cub Scout or Boy Scout pocketknife, my own preference is for the boys to use a small locking-blade non-serrated knife. The locking blade prevents accidental folding. The serrated knives are too hard to sharpen and will give really really nasty cuts if there is a slip. I was also looking for knives that had some kind of hilt-like feature between the blade and handle that prevents accidental movement of the fingers up over the blade. Not many folders have this feature.

 

I also want the knife to be high enough quality to work smoothly and take a good edge, but not cost too much if it gets lost. I tended to look for something under $20.

 

I did a lot of searching for a knife for my son (just starting Webelos now) and my daughter (a year younger). Most lock-blade knifes were just too big for them to comfortably use or just too expensive to risk loss.

 

Much to my wife's dismay, I bought several potential knifes from http://www.knifecenter.com (nice site, nice people, decent prices) and let the kids select the one they felt most comfortable with. I tended to find the Gerber knives to provide the highest quality with the lowest prices. There are many other great knive companies out there (Buck and others), but their prices were much higher.

 

Last year I purchased one of the locking blade Swiss Army knives. Nice knife, not as well built as a Gerber or Buck lock-blades, but the blade is much too long for a beginner.

 

My son liked the Gerber Magnum LST Jr (junior) fine edge. Though the name makes it sound big, it has a 2.63" locking blade, and a nice grip that makes it VERY unlikely his hand will accidentily slide onto the blade. The cost about $17. This is probably my own choice for a beginner's knife.

 

My daughter liked the Gerber LST II, which is an updated version of the original Gerber LST. It has a 2.56" locking blade, but unfortunately doesn't provide hilt-type feature to prevent my daughter's finger from slipping up onto the blade. I actually encouraged her to consider the Magnum LST Jr., but she found it too hard to press the locking button on the back of the knife. The LST II's button is definitely easier to operate. It cost about $21.

 

Another of the knives I purchased was a Gerber Gator Mate - a smaller version of the Gerber Gator that cost about $26. It's blade is 3.13", which we found to be a little too long to be comfortable for my kids. It would make a great knife for a young Boy Scout though.

 

My own opinion is that scouts should carry knives in a way that leaders know they have them - either in sheath on a belt, or hanging from a carabeener or similar. I tend to prefer a sheath. The two smaller Gerber LST knives do not come with sheaths. I found the small generic nylon sheath (part # SH236) sold at knifecenter.com for $3 fit perfectly. The Gerber Gater Mate comes with a nylon sheath.

 

My own favorite, for me, is the Buck Alpha Hunter Drop Point Folder w/ Rosewood handle. The rosewood version has a much better blade material than the rubber handled version. It comes with a beautiful leather sheath, but I find myself using the medium generic nylon sheath (part # SH237 that I bought in my attempt to find sheaths for the kid's knives. It was kind of expensive though, and is a bit heavy.

 

If I were to purchase a less expensive alternative, I would almost certainly purchase a Gerber Gator Drop Point.

 

This is probably more than you wanted to know, but I thought I'd share my experiences.

 

[kenk]

Mike,

 

I'm wondering what your thoughts are?

 

Most Scout leaders will probably follow the BSA rules - any boy who has earned the Whittling Chip card may carry a knife, so long as allowed by other entities (school, parks, etc...).

 

My own experience with our Bear den has a tremendous breadth of common sense and responsibility, though they are maturing quickly. Some boys could easily be trusted to carry a knife and use it responsibly, but other boys could be dangerous to themselves and others. That is why I'm leaving it up to the parents to make the decision. They know their boys better than me.

 

At our recent Pack Overnight, we recommended that ALL boys leave thier knives home. Our pack has done that for the years I've been involved. I'm not so sure if that is necessary though. Again, if the parent camping with the boy thinks its OK, then it is fine with me.

[fotoscout]

Kent,

 

That is not the BSA policy for CS to carry a knife.

 

They can only carry the knife when it is specifically requested that they bring it to a meeting or, on an outing. They must also carry the Whittling Chip card with them at all times when carrying the knife. Having earned the Whittling Chip card does not constitute a free for all with regard to carrying a knife.

 

Mike, I think the real answer is that some kids can and some kids can't. Some of the boys will continue to be a little afraid (respectful) of the knife even after they earn the chip. Those kids will handle their knifes responsibility. Others will carry on with a cavalier know it all demeanor, that will ultimately get someone hurt.

 

The BSA position is more like; the boys are old enough and coordinated enough to learn about using a knife. BSA does not say the kids are old enough to responsibility carry a knife. There is a broad line between the two. Mom shouldn't think that because Sonny earned his Whittling Chip that he can now carry and use a pocket knife. Mom needs to understand that Sonny has been taught how to safely and responsibly use a knife, but that doesn't mean that he will exercise that knowledge effectively. Mom is in charge here!

 

Unlike Kent, we asked the Bears to bring their knives on our Pack Camping Trip. We had one instance of a boy misusing the privilege by using his knife in an unauthorized area. Other than that, the boys used their knives responsibly. Did they always remember what they had been taught? No, but that's why we let them bring the knives, so that we could reinforce the training that they received.

 

Good Luck

 

[AnneinMpls]

Hi folks!

Hey, this is a really useful topic! I think not enough leaders (BSA *&* GS) teach the safe use of tools.

 

I remember the first time I taught jackknife safety to our Webelos scouts. After demonstrating good knife-handling practices - safety circle, opening, closing, passing, storage, etc. we began the recommended carving of bars of soap...

Now, always before with my GS's, our first knifework had been sharpening twigs for stick cooking. I was...dismayed (sigh) at how the knife blade, lubricated by the soap, loved loved to lodhge itself deeply into human flesh. *Butterknives* on bars of soap are a much better idea. (Except that one of the things I always teach is that a sharp knife is a safer knife because it cuts more predictably...)

I also really like the idea of the locking blades for young whittlers, but I do wonder how they do transitioning to using a jackknife? Or do they just stick with the locking blades? Do we have good reason for using jackknives now that locking blades are affordable and readily available?

Still learning

Anne in Mpls

[kenk]

fotoscout - I never said anything to do with knifes in Scouting being a "free for all". Certainly carrying knives is subject to legalities, parental wishes, and the policies of any applicable institutions, such as airports, schools, churches, and Scout units.

 

The Whittling Chip card itself says "By completing these safety requirements, he has earned the right to carry a pocketknife at designated Cub Scout functions. I interpret "designated" to refer to the above mentioned limitations.

 

AnneinMpls - Certainly sharp blades are indeed safer. The point of using a butter knife is to get them to understand blade control before giving them something that can cause real cuts. I especially like the butter knives with serations because a stroke across a finger gives a kind of "burning" sensation - just to emphasize the potential cut - but does not do real damage. I've heard some say to use plastic knifes, but during practicing at home before the den meeting, my kids tended to break them.

 

The "Guide to Safe Scouting" says "A sharp pocketknife with a can opener on it is an invaluable backcountry tool. ". I myself wonder about the utility of its current configuration.

 

Looking at the typically Scout pocketknife:

 

Can Opener - The can opener on an official knife doesn't lock, which has always made it a real pain to use. If car camping I'd rather just include a Swing-Away can opener in the kitchen gear box. If packpacking, I wouldn't take cans with. If I did bring cans backpacking, I find the small GI can opener easier to use than the official pocketknife's version.

 

Bottle Opener - When was the last time you found a bottle with a non-twist-off metal cap?

 

Screwdriver - The one good thing about this is that it many scouts used the screwdriver as a prybar instead of (God forbid) using the blade. If the goal is to have tools along, then bring tools. A multi-tool provides a better array of tools than an official Scout pocketknife.

 

Awl - In a day where most straps on gear were leather, an awl might have been useful, but today, when most straps are nylon, I'm not sure where the awl is needed. I suppose it is sometimes still useful for creating little holes, but other tools such as hole punches, drills, and even nails tend to do much better.

 

After following some backpacking forums, I came to realize that the tools backpackers felt most useful were a small sharp blade and a small pair of scissors. They tended to carry Leatherman's small Micra knife. For Scouting activities, I'd tend to carry a larger (3.5") lightweight (4 oz) lock-blade in a sheath on my belt, and then have scissors and tweezers in my first aid kit. I'm not really a big fan of multi-tools. I tend to think they are too heavy and clumsy, though if going into real wilderness I might consider putting one in my backpack. Except when fishing, I rarely have had a need for pliers in the field.

 

By the way, my son (a Webelos now), also has a Leatherman Micra. He has always been very intriqued by it and has proven to be respectful of it. I think he prefers the Micra over the small lock-blade I gave him. One nice feature is that when fully extended and the handle is closed, the blade cannot accidently fold on the Micra, though it is not a typical locking blade. Like all knives at this time, the Micra is only available to my kids on a "check in/out" basis in our home, and I try to watch him using it, just to be sure.

[kenk]

I suppose I should also mention that the only cut my son has gotten so far was with the Micra. The Micra has a file blade that is about the same shape as the knife blade. He thought he was opening the file, but found it to be the knife. Somehow (??) in his "panic" to close the knife he ended up cuting his finger slightly. I do wish the blades were a little better labeled on the Micra.

 

My old Buck Tool - a Leatherman style multi-tool no longer made by Buck - has etched pictures of the blades on the side of the handle. That really helps find the right blade first time.

[Bob White]

"Are boys this age able to handle the responsibility?

 

Mike,

Doesn't that depend totally on the individual boy? For that reason the guide I used as a Den Leader and the one I taught the Den Leaders when I was Cubmaster is to let the parents decide.

 

Our job was to teach them the safe use and care of the pocket knife. Whether or not they owned or carried one was up the parent/guardian, not us as the cub leaders.

 

We had an agreement with the parents that if the scout was to have a knife at the den meeting it was to remain in their pocket until needed and then he had to as a leader if he could take it out and use it.

 

Everyone felt this was fair and do-able. We never had a mishap.

 

This might work for you as well.

 

[KA6BSA]

I have found in many years of teaching knife safety that younger boys (even Boy Scouts Tenderfoot to 1st Class rank) cut themselves much more often using the Leatherman-type multi-tools. The parents buy the cheap knock-off versions thinking it will somehow be generally usefull for camping, but the boys get confused about the variety of tools to pull out and often get cut when they are trying to figure out how to open or close it or how to operate the locks if it has them. The handles are not centered on the cutting blade, are slippery metal and uncomfortable to hold... which leads to accidents even when doing simple tasks like whittling a stick. I do not recommend a multi-tool unless the boys has lots of experience with knives and near-adult capabilities... certainly not to kids of Cubs age. Multi-tools are also heavier to carry than a regular pocket knife and have lots of screw-drivers, files and such, actually not very usefull for camping. The tools that do get used are often used incorrectly or in a dangerous manner, such as lifting the hot lid of a Dutch oven with the pliers. I carry a Micra on my keys and I like the Gerber and Leatherman multi-tools, but they are just not safe for most younger boys. Even my wife cut herself on my Micra just trying to open the scissors to cut off a price tag... it flipped out in a way unexpected to her.(This message has been edited by KA6BSA)

[NWScouter]

Fotoscout,

Where is your citation for that? Kenks description of the BSA rule is right on with G2SS.

Units may make more rules but he has what the BSA says.

 

[Mike_Fossler]

Hi everyone;

 

First, thanks for replying.

 

It's good to see that the consensus among everyone regarding Cub Scouts having a pocket knife (after WC training) appears to mirror my feelings, which is some can handle it and some may not. In my own experience, I allow both of my sons (age 8 and 5) to "whittle" at home (in a non-Cub Scout environment)if I am closely supervising them, which is to say that I'm standing/sitting near them and am paying attention to what they're doing. Neither of them have hurt themselves. Given what I've seen them do at home, I have no doubt that my older boy (Bear) will do fine with a knife.

 

Mike

 

 

 

[CaveEagle]

RE: "Do we have good reason for using jackknives now that locking blades are affordable and readily available?"

 

I would be very careful teaching cubs their knife skills with lock-bladed knives. Many young boys will not have the finger strength or the dexterity to close some lock-bladed knives safely.

 

I just picked up one of my lock-bladed swiss army knives and found it impossible to "unlock" the blade without holding my fingers in the path of the folding blade.

 

I do agree that the Lockable blades can prevent many injuries, but they present their own problems and could promote bad habits.

 

Teach the boys proper skills and watch them closely for a while!

 

CE

 

[kenk]

Good point on the issue of closing locking blades.

 

NEVER get a young boy a liner lock folder. Though they can be nice locks, by their very nature they place fingers in line with the blade while unlocking.

 

The safest form of lock is the "axis lock", since the unlocking mechanism is to the side of the handle and the fingers never need to move into the blade path to operate. Unfortunately those tend to be limited to expensive knives like Benchmades.

 

Most lower cost (but high quality) knives tend to have back locks. I had each of my kids check to see if they are strong enough to operate the locks before deciding which they'd use. As I mentioned before, my daughter had problems with several. That issue did influence model selection for her.

 

I teach my kids to pinch the blade between two fingers (from the dull side) to maintain full and complete control of the blade when closing the locking knives. I teach them to actually close the handle onto the blade pinching the blade with two finger of one hand and the handle with two fingers of the other hand - its kind of hard to explain.