Poor Training?

[Herms]

Just wondering what the Scout World, especially they newer leaders out there think about the training they are receiving. I have been in scouts almost 20 years, but my wife (who I just recently conned into being a Tiger leader) took the Specific training and was very disappointed. From the previous thread I saw where another leader had a similar experience, as well as when I have taken most trainings over the years.

 

As a Cubmaster I run a very exciting pack program (we have the greatest job in scouts, wind up the boys and then send them home!) and have had several Cubmasters visit this year to feel the energy and get ideas (which they should have got in training).

 

I have decided to get on the district and council training teams and could use some input about how we can improve the training. From my wife, she said that they mostly just read from the book, but didn't give her much info on HOW to organize activities. She also didn't get a feel for HOW to infuse excitement and energy in to her program (other than watching Mister Know-it-all here).

 

Now before some of you jump in, I know there is an established training syllabus and method, but we need to do better. Soooo, I ask you out there. WHAT kind of training did you get (Remember a Scout is Honest)? For you "O'l Timers" out there, WHAT have you seen over the years that you see needs to be added/changed? For you newer leaders WHAT did you have to learn the hard way in the last couple years that you wish someone would have trained you on?

 

[ronvo]

First of I'll admit to having been to only the one offical training session. However I think the disappoint of that has made me wary of spending my time attending others.

 

Why was the one a disappointment? A I stated in the previous thread the YP and G2SS part in the morning was good and useful.

 

However the afternoon was lead by a lady who had been a den leader for many years. I am sure she was an excellent den leader. She told us of many of the crafts she had done over the years and 1001 uses for toilet paper holders. She showed us all the diiferent binders she had from Pow Wows all over the country. She also spent a large amount of time selling us on going to Pow Wow.

As I said I am sure she was an exllent den leader but she wasn't a trainer. And I felt the afternoon a waste.

 

Secondly because of the few attendees and few trainers they said there was suppose to be seperate sessions for Tiger Leaders than Wolf/Bear but they clumped us few folks together and talked mostly about Wolf Bear ( i was only Tiger Leader)

 

They mentioned the Cub Leader Book but said a new reveiosn was on the way (this was Sept 2001)and so didin't go over that much - just references to "it's in the book".

 

What I wish had been covered more is boy behavior, handling high energy boys in a group, keeping meeting flowing,that sort of stuff.

 

I can read quite well so have "trained" my self for the most part my extensive reading of the literature. And most of can figure out how to put a craft together from the instructions.

However - I don't think it replaces sessions from good trainers.

 

But it is the learing to handle and deliver it to the boys that needs to be taught by folk who can acutally teach others.

 

I think one problem is just as many units will accept any warm body for a leader - districts will accept any old timer as a trainer.

 

I am planning to attend Webelos Leader Training and to be open minded. However if the next training is a poor as last it will take some convincing to get me to another.

 

I'll just look for someone who use to be a Bob White or some Ol' fat guy to mentor me ;^)

 

Thanks for the topic and allowing me to ramble.

 

This forum is great.

 

ronvo

 

 

 

[Bob White]

Herms,

If you saw a bad performance of Shakespeare would you immediately assume the script is bad?

 

Now I am not saying that every BSA syllabus is a timeless classic...BUT.....

Have you seen the syllabus, studied its intructions to the presenter, attended the training for presenters (Trainer Development/BSA 500)?

 

Or, have you only attended a recent training session, gotten feedback from from a few people on the training they saw, and have now determined that the problem is the material and not the presenter?

 

I for one have seen all of the current training presented many, many times by different people. And if the syllabus is followed, all the info needed to accomplish the purpose of the course is there. How well it is delivered has varied with the skill and comfort of the presenter.

 

The longest session in the Den Leader specific training is on program planning. If your wife did not get that then the instructor did not follow the syllabus.

 

 

[Bob White]

She told us of many of the crafts she had done over the years and 1001 uses for toilet paper holders. She showed us all the diiferent binders she had from Pow Wows all over the country. She also spent a large amount of time selling us on going to Pow Wow.

 

None of which are part of the Den Leader Specific Training Syllabus.

 

The Den Leader training covers (and I am going from memory here, I will double check the syllabus at home.)

 

Pack Structure

Den Leader responsibilities,

Characteristics of a good Den Meeting

Den Leader recognitions

Program Planning (bulk of the training)

Advancement (second largest time slot)

Uniforming

 

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[fotoscout]

I think that the greatest fault with our training system is that it often fails to present itself for what it is, sure its an opportunity to pickup factual details about the program, but I think its intended to be more than that. Its an opportunity to meet people and exchange thoughts with people who are doing the same job in scouting that you are doing, and you can do this with a knowledgeable / experienced leader present. Its an opportunity for newcomers to see the program modeled for them. Its an opportunity to develop a relationship with some of more experienced leaders, the same people that you might want to solicit information or direction from in the future. And finally its an opportunity to learn how the system works and where you can turn for help when necessary. The dialog is important. With each subsequent training class the dialog changes because the attendees are a little more experienced and further along in the program. There is a feel of the program that I dont think can be learned by just reading the books.

 

People need to look beyond the presentation, and ask themselves, did I get something out of this? Most often the answer is yes, although the person may not have gotten what they expected.

 

[LPC_Thumper]

I am my district's training chair. We are currently getting a training team off the ground. Your post caught my eye, because we are doing New Leader Essentials, and Cub Leader Specific in 15 days.Here's what we are doing:

 

First, 2 months ago, I found five volunteers to help me. All have various experience in Cub Scouts. I even have a commissioner on staff. We have met twice, and practiced our presentations with each other, and are now making our handouts. Some of the staff are actually redoing the handouts.

 

Second, 2 months ago, we started advertising this course. The training itself is on a Saturday, the following Monday I will start on the next training. Steps 1 & 2 will be the same.

 

If the training is run "by the book" nothing is read from the book. There is plenty of time to discuss how to implement the ideas from the book. There is plenty of time to discuss the topics contained in the book.

 

I have very vivid memories of sitting down with the presenters from my first course, and getting my concerns removed. I try to do the same thing for my courses.

 

My trademark thing is to do the following:

 

Before the training starts, I ask people why they came. I write down their responses on a big piece of paper. I don't tell them if the course will cover the question or not, I just write. I continue to write until the questions stop. When they stop I ask my question again, almost always I get more questions, I think the phrase is "rinse, repeat"... I do this until I truly don't get any more questions. (It has been my experience that the later rounds of questions are much more fundamental questions, but harder to solve)

 

Then I thank them, and take the paper(s) over to a wall and tape them up. I don't refer to the paper(s) until the end of the course. After EVERYTHING is done for the course, I mean EVERYTHING, I walk back to my papers, and say "Before this course started I asked you why you came. If you'd like let's take a minute and review how we did getting those questions answered. On the other hand, the course is actually over, so feel free to leave whenever you'd like"

 

People usually gather closer now, it's their first "official" after-the-meeting meeting. Now one at a time, I go down their list. If I come to something the course covers, I ask if they see the answer to this now. I don't review it with them, I just ask if they know it now. If they don't I remind them, and leave it there. If the question they came for is not covered in the course, I tell them which course covers that question. If I don't know, I tell them to talk to their unit commissioner, or come to roundtable and ask. This is when I leave the "official" course. This is my way of not wasting their time. People helped me, I'm just trying to do what worked for me.

 

I was interested to see that at least in Cub Leader Specific Training they do something VERY similar. Gee might it be that traning handled by folks that aren't trainers gets bad? Naw it must be the material... NOT!!

 

I'd love to hear how others have resolved the preception that the lessons aren't as good as they used to be.

[eaglewings2002]

This may be a different thread entirely, but I do have a bone to pick about training. I have gone to several different trainings over the past few weeks (Baloo, safe swim defense, safety afloat. Webelos leader outdoor training). In ALL cases I found I did not learn anything I did not already know (except for the lazer tag thing ). Now I am a former Girl Scout, GS leader, avid camper from childhood, certified in water safety, etc. I am not trying to come off as a know-it-all but what I want to know is, why can they not offer these courses online as they do Youth Protection? The bottom line is, while I love working with Cub Scouts, I am a volunteer wearing several hats, plus have six children of my own and all the "stuff" that entails. I DO LOVE the time I spend with the Scouts and the time I spend planning for things. I DO see the need for training. I feel the time I spent at these courses was pretty much wasted when I really had other things I needed to be doing, and could have done them online at my own convenience and in less than half the time. I told the training commissioner I am seriously reconsidering my participation in future courses and believe it or not, she agreed with me.

 

Is there a REAL reason (by that I mean other than "that's the way it is") that they can't offer these online?

[CubsRgr8]

I'm with eaglewing2002 - post NLE and Leader Specific training on line, just like Fast Start and YP! Leaders would take the training as it fits into their schedule, National would know that the contents of the syllabus are being properly presented, and training records would update automatically. Talk about a win-win!

 

Frankly, I found the face-to-face benefit of these courses to be minimal, as most participants didn't know much about their positions, so they weren't in a position to share ideas. That resulted in the courses only being as good as the trainers and their willingness to follow the syllabus. A much better place for face-to-face is available through round-table and Pow-wow. Hey! Idea alert! Include attendance at a roundtable as a requirement to complete each Leader Specific course!

 

Now, who do I contact at National to get this going?

[scoutldr]

I know an SM who after 30+ years, is still attending roundtables. At what point would you consider him "trained"?

 

As a trainer, one of my frustrations is that there is not enough time allotted for each course...if one follows the syllabus to the letter, shows the videos, etc, there is no time for questions, discussions, interaction, sharing of ideas, etc. We would be there until midnight. I agree that the weakest courses, next to TDC (which is pretty worthless), are the Cub Specific courses. My council always (in spite of my pleadings) advertises "Cub Specific" as one course. Then, out of a class of say 20 people, I get 2-3 of each flavor, most of whom don't know what unit, den or district they are in. As a sole instructor, or with maybe an assistant to help run the videos and pass out papers, there is no way I can split the group of 20 into five groups and still be effective. Also, in the "specific" curricula, there is much overlap ... the same info is presented to each group with little different that addresses a specific position.

 

I plan to capitalize on the Pack Trainer concept in my district. I will train the trainers...they will train (and mentor on an ongoing basis!!!) their unit level leaders. The best instructor is one who has been there recently, not a 50 year old gray-beard who hasn't been a Cub Scouter since 1985. Ideally, prospective DLs should start as Assistants, then move up. Same with CMs. Nothing beats OJT...you don't learn how to have a fun den meeting by listening to a lecture.

 

To Thumper...good ideas...thanks.

[Eamonn]

I think if there is a soft spot in the "New Training" It is with the Cub Scout training.

It is kind of hard for some of us old timers to appreciate what is going on or where the BSA is going with the Cub Scout Training.

I have to admit to having not viewed a Cub Scout Fast Start tape in a long time. So long (2 years) that I don't know if it has or has not been changed. I always thought that it was OK, but did need to be viewed with someone that had some knowledge of Cub Scouting and the pack that the new leader was joining. This of course should be done by the Pack Trainer. However very few of the Packs in the District have anyone filling that position.

I really do like the New Leader Essentials. The material is very good. I do have a problem with the 90 minutes that is supposed to be the time frame. In fact we seem to be running 15 -20 minutes over. Not that anyone has ever complained and my feeling is that if there is learning taking place why stop. Of course we need to be aware of the time and 20 minutes over is way too much. We do at times have a problem with there being too many Cub Scouter's and very few Crew Leaders (At times none!!) This makes the session near the end very difficult.(The session where the participants report on the hike.)But over all it is a good and worth while course.

The soft spot is with the Cub Scout Leader Specific Training.While the idea that the Cub Scouter will return and take the specific training for his or her position (Tiger Den Leader,Cub Scout Den Leader,Webelos Scout Den Leader, Cubmasters and Committee members.) Is a good one. The fact is that very few come back.

The training is shorter then the old Basic Training, which would be fine if the participants were returning. It does hit on all the high points that each position needs to know to deliver the program. As with all BSA training's the course is presented by volunteers and the quality of the presentation can vary. One way that the BSA can ensure that the important material is covered is to put it in a video. The good presenter will know how to lead a discussion after the video to push the message home.

In fairness to the course, we have to be realistic. We are never going to train anyone to be a great Den Leader or whatever other position in one day or two or three evenings. We can show them where they will find the resources that they need: Round Table, Program Helps, other training's.

To improve the Training experience we need to really develop our District Training Team. We might want to do everything possible to get all those that present training to attend the Trainer Development Conference.This would /could/should include Round Table Staff.

If there is a need for some sort of supplementary training it should be offered but not as part of the established training's. Pow Wow or Akela calls is a good place.

It would be nearly impossible for a Unit Commissioner to visit Den Meetings, so the need for a Pack Trainer is a real one. I'm not sure how we get that message across to the packs. I was very fortunate that during my term as as a Cubmaster the pack had an outstanding Den Leader Coach, who was also on the Round Table staff.

While pizazz is an important part of the pack meetings. The "Real Work" is done at the weekly Den meetings. We have to focus on helping these people and the best way to deliver this is at the pack level. While training Den Leaders is not in the Cubmasters job description if there is no Pack Trainer, he or she might want to take this on.

It is good that you have other Cubmasters visiting your meetings to get ideas. I do hope that you are not voicing your opinions about training to them?

Eamonn

 

 

[ronvo]

BOB,

Obviously then I didn't get trained and it was the trainer and not the material because we didn't talk about the material you mentioned.

 

Frankly, I do not think the lady was a trained trainer, just an old scouter relating her experience.

 

I believe from what I 've heard and read here however that the bad rap training gets is due to poor trainers. Again I think it is whichever old scouter will step up to be a trainer is given the book and told to go for it.

 

I will withold any further judgement or comment until I can take a another training session.

 

ronvo

 

 

 

 

[Eamonn]

Wow I must be a real dummy!!

I have been around training for about the ten years. In Scouting for about 40 (Yes I'm the gray haired trainer.) I have been involved in/taken/or presented most of the BSA training's.

And every single time I learn something. Someone asks a different question or the presenter has a different slant on the presentation.

I never knew that there was such a thing as a Training Commissioner (There isn't!!!)

I'm sorry Eaglewings if you go with a closed mind you sure as heck won't get anything out of the training.

I'm all for people attending Round Table, however being that many Den Leaders have young children at home and what with Den Meetings, Pack Meetings, Leaders meetings and the time spent planning the meetings do we really want to force them into something else?

I'm sorry scoutldr, there is no way that you can present the Cub Scout Specific training by your lonesome it was never ever intended to be presented that way. By trying to present it by yourself you are not serving the needs of the participants.

Thunper - I have seen what you call your Trademark of listing the participants questions on large sheets of paper. I have never used it as a method.My experience was at PTC where I was attending the conference on Commissioner Service, by the end of the week in fact on the very last day it seemed that there was still unanswered questions and it seemed like there was a mad rush to cover them in the time allowed for the training I wonder if this might be a problem?

Eamonn

[Bob White]

Actually what thumper described is a specific el;ement of the Cub Leader Specific courses. They call it a "parking lot". The presenter has a board on display and the participants are given sticky notes so that any questions can be posted in the parking lot. Any questions not answered during the course are to be answered afterwards or the participant is to be directed to a resource where the answer can be obtained.

[eaglewings2002]

Well, Eamonn, I must say you gathered from my post something that was not there. I do not go to these things with a closed mind. I go with a mind that is eager and excited to be doing what I am doing, and leave wondering why I wasted time away from my family for this. I have been gung-ho about every training I have ever been to, and come away feeling cheated.

 

Personally I think the problem is in the training. I think they take way too much time to teach something that need not take nearly as long. If you disagree, fine, I am happy that you have the time to deal with this. From the other replies I am not the only one who feels this way.

 

I still would like to hear an answer to my question, rather than simply being called closed minded. You trainers give me a reason to love the classes and I will.

[Bob White]

Here are where the dilemmas arise. Many participants come with no positive leadership experience, while a few come with loads. Yet each wants the course to fit their specific needs. Sorry, that is not possible. Rather than say This is all stuff I learned in other leadership training, how about realizing, Hey this is stuff I understand, the BSA uses skills and procedures I am familiar with, the job won't be that hard to do.

 

Next some come away disappointed because the trainer didn't answer all their questions, so what is the solution? Get rid of the trainer and put everything on line. Sorry I don't see how that solves the problem.

 

The BSA has started to put some training on line, and more is being developed. But just as the scouting program cannot be delivered to scouts via the Internet, neither can all leadership training. There are to many variables that need to be considered. You need a live person at some point. Plus, here are some other things to consider.

 

We (the training team and district and council volunteers) need to know you, and know who you are, and you need to know us. That will not happen on-line.

 

Not everyone has a computer. Not everyone knows how to use their computer. Not everyone is on-line. Live training will always be needed. On-line training is perfect when "Telling" information. But it is not good for motivating, answering specific needs or questions, or for flexibility. I expect NLE will become available on line. But if you are going to be a program leader in a hands-on program then you need to get out in the world and attend Leader Specific Training.

 

INSIST that you training follow the program syllabus. These are not top secret documents. If you are dissatisfied after attending a course as to be able to see the syllabus. The only one that is not available will be the Wood Badge but you will come away with much of it in your own version from the course.

 

Remeber also that the Leader Specific courses are "BASIC" training. Thay are not designed to be the first and only trainng you receive. They are the 'first step' to understanding the education and development methods of the various BSA programs.