When is a tour permit required?

[eisely]

We have had some disagreements within our unit about when a tour permit is required and when it is not required. My sense is that the tour permit concept was developed initially to cover situations where youth are being transported in automobiles by other than their parents to and from events. The language about tour permits in the Guide to Safe Scouting is found under the chapter dealing with Transportation.

 

The tour permit now requires additional information and representations beyond just information about automobiles and drivers.

 

What about events where the unit is providing no transportation? What about service projects within the community where no transportation is provided or coordinated by the unit? What about day hikes and cycling events where no transportation is provided?

 

My own attitude is that I will default to getting a tour permit in the absence of clear rules that one is not needed.

 

Bob White, what advice can you offer?

[ScouterPaul]

Our policy is to complete a tour permit anytime we are meeting or going someplace other than our normal meeting place. This might be overkill but I would rather be covered than not.

 

We keep a master list of all vehicles, insurance and drivers license information and attach a copy to the permit.

[Bob White]

eisley,

Tour permits are required for adult lead trips to any location except your home council-owned camps. This includes den, pack, and troop activities.

 

Bike trips, canoe trip, hikes etc. where adults are present, must file a tour permit.

 

A Patrol outing where no adults are present, and no motor vehicles are used, are not required to file tour permits. (they must know and follow all policies in the Guide to Safe Scouting that apply to their activity.)

 

Scout activities where each scout is transported in a vehicle driven by his own parent or guardian, does not have to file a tour permit.

 

Be aware that some councils have local preferences on the use of permits and you should check with your Council Executive if you have any question as to whether or not you need to submit one.

 

 

[tdyer56]

I understand it to be, anytime a unit goes out on a trip, even to a council owned camp, they are required to have a tour permit. In my council, they also use the permits to keep track of which units are active.

 

Tim Dyer

[MomScouter]

What if - an event was held (say a canoe event) and no tour permit was filed, and an accident occured...who would be held liable? The SM? The CO? Other adult Scouters present? I have heard of packs/troops doing things without submitting the permit and have often wondered who was at risk when this occured.

[Bob White]

Tyler, and MomScouter,

 

The top paragraph of the tour permits exclude their use when traveling to a camp owned by your council. Some Councils also exclude their use when attending district or council staffed events such as camporees.

 

When the Guide to Safe Scouting regulations are not followed, everyone is at risk. The BSA will not take responsibility or provide legal assistance or pay court fines for suits that result from activities where the policies of the BSA were not followed. The use of Tour Permits is part of those policies. Medical insurance coverage for injured youth would still be in effect, however adults run a high risk of losing the protection of their BSA owned liability insurance.

 

Bob White

[TXscouter]

I thought that the exemption in the first paragraph to the council owned camp is you do not have to file a national tour permit when the council owned camp is more than 500 miles away, a local tour permit would do.

 

[eisely]

The specific activity that triggered this thread involved bicycles. Last spring a group of scouts and adult leaders in our troop undertook some local cycling trips that began and ended in our town. Transportation to and from the event was the scout's, and the scout's own parents', responsbility. No automobiles were used in the course of the activity itself.

 

Given the hazardous nature of cycling, I thought the adult in charge was taking a chance in not getting a tour permit. He put not only himself at risk, but also all of the other adults participating, the unit leadership, the CO, etc. etc.

 

Bob White,

 

Concerning patrol activities, if I were accompanying a patrol as an adult on a day hike for example, while a tour permit may not be required, I think that I would still want one. You are correct about local policies differing. This is where the confusion comes in. For example, when a youth submits his eagle package to the district advancement committee here for his BOR, he must include the approved tour permit for the service project.

[Bob White]

texas Scouter and Eisely,

 

The exemption for home council owned camps is in the first paragraph of the Local and National Tour permits.

 

 

A patrol bike hike when adults are present would require a tour permit.

 

Bob

[eisely]

Bob,

 

If no adults are present at a patrol event such as a bike hike, then no tour permit is required? Is this what you are saying? Is the presence of adults one of the governing factors as to whether a tour permit is required at all? Doesn't this go against the need for supervision as one of the basic tenets of Safe Scouting?

 

I am no fan of unnecessary paperwork, but if the tour permit concept is one of the basic risk management tools of scouting, it seems to me that there ought to be better clarity about these kinds of things. Your insights are appreciated.

 

 

[Bob White]

Eisely,

The tenets of Youth Protection says that there can never be only one adult with the scouts. However the patrol method allows for patrols, which are youth lead, to go on overnight activities and hikes with the scoutmaster's permission. This has always been allowed in scouting since the beginning of the BSA program in 1910.

 

Patrol activities without adults being present is outlined in the Boy Scout Handbook, The Junior Leader Handbook (now being replaced by the Patrol Leader Handbook, and the Senior Patrol Leader Handbook) The Scoutmaster Handbook, and the Guide to Safe Scouting.

 

Since you mentioned the Guide to Safe Scouting, Let's look at what it says;

 

"Two registered adult leaders, or one registered adult and a parent of a participating Scout, one of whom must be at least 21 years of age or older, are required for all trips or outings. There are a few instances, such as patrol activities, when no adult leadership is required. Coed overnight activities require male and female adult leaders, both of whom must be 21 years of age or older, and one of whom must be a registered member of the BSA.

 

Bob

 

 

[nldscout]

If you want the true correct answer, you need to ask your SE. Until our recent merger our old council did not one for trips within the council boundies that did not invole high risk,ie water, climbing. New council just clarified they want them for all "trips" but did not define trips.

[Bob White]

nldscout,

Pardon my if I sound a little defensive, but was there something in my response that you found to be untrue or incorrect?

I would not want to be giving out inaccurate information. If you have a specific BSA resource that conflicts with the information I shared from the National and Local Tour Permits, the Scoutmaster Handbook and the Guide to Safe Scouting, or the recommendation to check with the local Council Executive, I would appreciate you sharing the specific information.

 

Thanks for your help,

Bob White

[KoreaScouter]

Bob; I think your post on two-deep is right on the money; but, I don't think that's exactly the point. What I read other posters saying is this: if the purpose of the tour permit is to ensure the outing was properly planned, someone has a GTSS with them, Safe Swim Defense/Safety Afloat will be applied, District/Council knows which units are doing what, and families have given their permission (among other reasons I'm sure), then whether the event/outing is a troop one with 2-deep or a patrol one with no adults should have no bearing on whether or not a Tour Permit should be filed. Granted, the form is designed for troop activities, but if a patrol is planning a patrol event involving swimming, the simple process of going through the Tour Permit form can't help but remind you of the SSD requirements.

 

We err on the side of caution and file tour permits whenever we're meeting somewhere other than the Scout hut...

[Bob White]

KoreaScouter,

 

If that's the case then the distinction that needs to be made is that a water activity could not be approved by the scoutmaster as a Patrol activity since the Safe Swim Defense plan requires an adult over 21 in charge. Once an adult is present, two must be present. Once two adults are present it is no longer a youth lead activity and a Tour Permit would need to be filed.

 

The only cases where a Boy Scout unit is not required to file a Tour Permit (note that I never said they couldn't fill one out, just that they are not required to file it with council) is if they go to a home council owned camp, or if it is a patrol activity with NO adults.

 

Sorry if I wasn't clear on that before.

 

Bob

 

(This message has been edited by Bob White)