Cub Scouts Belt Loop and Pins - Misunderstood?

[pack524cm]

We have a family in the Pack that has two boys in Cub Scouts. One is a Tiger and the other is a Webelos 1. The mom submitted Cub Scout Academic and Sports Belt Loop and Pins requests to two different dens leaders who are questioning if she understands the program and she says she does. We don't want to hold back any recognition for a boy but find it difficult for a Tiger to earn as much recognition as she is saying in just six weeks. I don't want to have to challenge her to ask her boys how they completed this work, but she's forcing our hand as its making our pack uncomfortable. Any professional way in fixing this problem? Have already submitted request to Unit Commissioner and BSA Counsel for advise also.

 

This is what she said they completed and the pins are not easy to complete:

 

Webelos 1

 

Both Belt Loops and Pins for the following:

Bowling, Baseball, Fishing, Flag Football, Roller Skating, Swimming, Table Tennis Ultimate, Bicycle

 

Tiger

 

Both Belt Loops and Pins for the following:

Bowling, Baseball, Fishing, Flag Football, Roller Skating, Swimming, Soccer, Collecting, Art

[Laurie]

What time frame did the parent use? I think asking that is legimate, for simply asking if the program is understood doesn't deal with specifics. I find that no matter how many times a particular question about timing comes up, we still hear, "oh he did that a long time ago". The focus is on doing it now, and on doing his best. I often say, "That's fantastic! I look forward to seeing him earn these this year, maybe learning something new this time, and it would be great if he'd shares what he learns with the den." That said, my son is able to do challenging belt loops and pins in a relatively short time. He is the kind of kid that the teacher leaves extra work out for, so that when he finishes tasks ahead of the class, he can fill his time with other things (otherwise, his hands or mouth do what they shouldn't ). But in one month, that's a LOT of belt loops and pins--we've seen 3 or 4 belt loops by some boys in one month, and sometimes 1 or 2 pins. That's the high end of earning in our pack. Does your pack pay for all belt loops and pins earned? Not all do. The limits (if any) need to be clearly communicated. Another thought: is this family using this in home schooling? That would provide the time and opportunity to earn quite a bit. Just some thoughts Welcome to the forums!

[scoutmom24]

I give copies of the requirement page from the Academics and Sports book to parents in my den who want to work on specific pins or Belt loops. They check things off and return it to me. This helps them to know that they are really accountable for what they say their child does. You could tell her you need the sheets for record keeping purposes, which is why I ask for them myself.

 

Also, our cubmaster, when he hands out awards, will ask a scout what they did to earn it (kind of putting them on the spot). Could you have the den leaders ask the boys to bring in projects they did for the pins to "show" the den?

 

Sometimes you just have to grit your teeth and take the word of the parent. They are really not doing their sons any favors by "pencil-whipping" if in fact that is what they are doing. Oh, and that Tiger will have to save something for when he's a Webelo, or do things over again, when it comes time to earn Activity pins. Make sure that Mom understands that.

 

 

I also wondered if maybe this mom homeschooled? Many homeschoolers use scout books etc in their curriculum.

 

 

I agree, that's an awful lot to have done since September. Are they brand new scouts, or maybe the Webelo worked on them over the summer?

 

 

[Twocubdad]

I don't believe there is any legitimate way for a Tiger Cub to complete all those pins in six weeks. That many belt loops would be tough, much less the pins.

 

Ultimately, we have to take the parent's word for what the Scout has completed. But that doesn't mean we should roll over and play dead. First off I'd have someone at the pack level, CC, CM or advancement chairman, talk to the parent and make sure they understand the program. In addition to the technical details (work should be done while a scout, etc.) make sure they understand the big picture. Even if the family goes bowling five nights a week, the parents should make a point that "Tomorrow night we're going to complete our Cub Scout belt loop when we go bowling." For them to say, "Oh, we go bowling five nights a week, we can sign that off," short-changes the process and sets a bad precident for completing future badges. Another big-picture point is that by completing this many pins in the first six weeks, what's the boy going to do for the next four years? One of the advantages of the loops and pins is that they can be earned during those dry spells while the boy is working toward his rank advancement. I always tell parents to "ration" the amount of loops a boy earns in any given month. That way, they are receiving a little something at most every pack meeting and getting the positive reinforcement as they go along. Another point is that some of the loops and pins are required at different levels. If the boy does them now, he'll have to repeat them later. (Actually, that happens all the time, but in this case it's a good point to make with the parent.)

 

If that doesn't get the parent to take a step back and reassess what they claim to have completed, then you need to ask for a list of the specific requirements the Scouts completed for each pin. With the parent and Scout, ask the boy what they did to complete each. When a requirement calls for the boy to make something, ask him to bring it to the den meeting. What was it we used to say about the Russians? Trust but verify?

[janssenil]

 

Could they have been working on them all Summer? Since Advancement occurs in May or June, kids could begin working on belt loops & pins during the summer for their new rank. My son earned both belt Loops and pins for baseball, fishing, swimming and bicycle last summer and by the Pack Meeting in September he had done the belt loops for Bowling, basketball and table Tennis plus the computer belt loop & pin. You have to admit, the belt loops are pretty easy to earn. Actually none of the sports pins or loops are really hard.

 

I guess I'd question it a bit if the Pack is paying for all of it, but ultimately the family is the loser if they weren't really earned.

[Twocubdad]

I would assume that the Tiger joined in September, although I know in some cases Tigers register as soon as school is out in June. Still,I think completion of all the pins is beyond the normal ability of most Tigers.

[pack524cm]

I carefully contacted the mother to these two boys today and "congradulate" her two boys for the special accomplishments of completed all the belt loop and pin activities. The mother was appreciative and went on to explain how they did a lot of the work during the summer and started to give me dates. When I explained that her Tiger had just started on Sept 18th and he would not be able to receive the belt loops and pins for activity prior to Sept 18th, thats when she started to change her story saying that she had done 7 of the 9 in the last five weeks. I aske her to bring three activities from the completed pin activities so that we could display them at the Pack Week and set up a special award ceremony she became a little more worried about what I was leading into. We closed the conversation on how this was not something that every boy completed so quickly and that we usually like to have this last over a four year period.

 

She called me back shortly and started to shout at me accusing her of cheating. I very nicely asked her why was she shouting at me and she repeated her statement. I again asked her to nicely undertstand that what her boys did was very special and and we wanted to award her in that way. She ultimately deleted a few of the Belt Loops and Pins but they will still receive 7 for the Webelos boy and 6 for the Tiger and she will be setting up a special table and we just feel as if the parents are missing the point for the future.

 

[Twocubdad]

Too bad. Sounds like you opened to door for her to do the right thing, she just wouldn't walk though it.

 

I would still try to get word out to the all the parents as to how the program should work. Maybe a article in the newsletter, if you have one, or just asking to DLs to pass the proper methods along.

 

I failed to say it earlier, but welcome to the campfire!

[fotoscout]

I don't have the book with me but if I remember correctly, the boys need to keep a score sheet as one of the requirements for the bowling pin. A Tiger would not be able to score a bowling game!

 

 

[dsteele]

I'll echo that one, foto! I can't score a bowling game. Unless the machine does it for me, I'm toast!

 

Just got back from a major tooth rebuild inside my own mouth. Novocaine is wearing off and pain is setting in. I know this is off topic, but very much on my mind at the moment.

 

Think I'll go lie down.

 

DS

[pack524cm]

Being the CM for this pack of 107 boys we don't want this Sports and Academic Pin issue to get out of hand. The pack earns enough money each year to pay for all the awards for the boys. As a result of this issue, our pack committe has decided to table all recognition of all Sports and Academic Pins for this months pack meeting.

 

The Sports and Academic Belt Loops and Pins handbook have steps in which a committe group can be formed. We haven't had to do this before as parents have submitted the forms with dates and presented examples to the den leaders at their den meetings. The cubmaster than reviewed the documentation with the den leaders and we moved on to award the boy. Has anyone every put together a committe or addressed the Sports and Academic Belt Loops and Pins handbook diffently?

 

This issue has really taken up more time than it should and the parents to the two boys have unfortunately pushed us into having to put some rules in place to our "By Laws" that should not be necessary.

[DenLeaderDad]

I may be a little unclear on this, but isn't the Academic and Sports Belt Loops and Pin Program supposed to be an extra-curricular activity? I am new to Scouting (started in June with my Wolf Son) and I thought that the main emphasis was completing the Achievements in the Scout's handbook. I understand that as the Scout is working on the Achievements they can also be working on Belt Loops, Pins, Electives, etc. However, if the Scout has done all the Belt Loops and Pins that the parent says they have, have they done any of the Rank Achievements? In my own situation, my son is two thirds of the way through his Wolf book, has earned the Belt Loops for Computers, Soccer and Marbles (we did the Marble Belt Loop as a Den meeting), a Soccer Pin and has roughly 33 electives completed. AND IT IS ONLY THE BEGINNING OF DECEMBER! I just can't seem to get my son to slow down. I've tried telling him that this is not a race, but he keeps going. I have already had to tape some of the pages back into his Wolf book because they are falling out. Is this normal? I do like scoutmom24's idea of giving the Scout the requirements page for the Belt Loop and Pin that the Scout wishes to earn and have the parents check off the items that their child has completed. I also have the Scout "Present" their work to the Den to show the others what they did to complete the requirements.

[fotoscout]

DenleaderDad,

 

You are correct that the belt loops and pins are extra. But you can still weave them into your program and have the boys earn them along the way. The boys will not earn their Wolf badge by completing umpteen electives or belt loops. I would pick a time frame within which you would like to see the boys complete their achievements and have them work toward that goal. You may have a jack rabbit that completes his achievements sooner, but thats OK. After they have earned their badge they can work on many of the electives or belt loops as a group. This also gives you something to build your meetings around. Ive tried to tell the parents that the pin should indicate that the boy has really achieved an understanding of the sport or academic area well beyond the requirements for the belt loop. Often the parents just dont listen and like some other posters here, I get a request for bowling belt loop and pin for a Wolf.

 

Also remember that the Academics and Sports program carries through into their Webelos year(s), so if they do them all now, they will not have any of this program left to work on. You may want to suggest that the boys work on the BSA Family Program or Religion Awards as an alternative.

 

As for your son, if hes motivated let him go. As long has hes getting something out of the work hes doing its great that he wants to read the print off the pages! Many leaders in my area plan to have the achievments completed by December. I think that December is too soon, I like to see us finish our achievments in time for an award ceremony to be done at Blue and Gold.

(This message has been edited by fotoscout)

[CubsRgr8]

Point of Order! The new 2003 edition of the Webelos handbook incorporates earning beltloops in the requirements of some of the activity badges. For example, a Webelos MUST earn the citizenship beltloop to earn his Citizen Activity Badge.

[ScoutNut]

Belt loops & pins can be earned more than once. When they get to Webelos, if they have already earned the belt loops they need at a lower scout level, they will have to re-earn them again as a Webelos. Idealy they should do different requirements or do them more in depth.