Smaller pack flag

[SC_Pack428]

I posted this in "new to scouting" by mistake. I meant for it to go here (cub scouts)

 

I have a very small pack in South Carolina. We have a Pack flag. It came from the scout shop. It is very large. It cost a small fortune.

 

We use it in pack events and treat it with great respect.

 

However, when we take this group of young boys on a campout or other outdoor event, I hesitate to take this large flag.

It is difficult for the boys to handle for long periods of time and I am worried it will end up in a mud puddle.

 

I want a smaller version (like 2 x 3) of the flag to take and display at these events. However, the scout shop offers nothing less than a 3x5.

 

Has anyone else dealt with this problem?

 

Thanks.

 

[sctmom]

Have you considered making your own flag? Someone with a sewing machine could quickly hem a piece of material. You could have someone draw on it or use iron on type material to put the pack number and other info on there.

 

[Twocubdad]

The Insignia Guide controls the design and use of unit flags, but doesn't say anything about an official size. Under the heading "Unit Flags" it says "for size and materials, refer to Flag Order Form No. 70-421." I'd ask the scout shop for a copy of that form and see what that says.

 

With that said, if you want to check with a local seamstress or a shop that makes deocorative banner and have a flag made to your specifications, I don't see a problem. The flag you make won't be "official", but given the circumstances, I can't imagine anyone giving you a problem over it, especially if you use the smaller flag for activities and use the official flag for more formal occasions. You need stick with the design and lettering guidelines in the Insignia Guide, and match the colors and material.

 

This is another situation where the Supply Division could do a better job, or at least be more upfront with the cost. The catalog lists the price of the 3x5 flag as $32.50 and requires that they be sold with lettering. Our brother troop bought one last year and spent more that $300 on it.

 

 

[SC_Pack428]

I did check with the scout shop. They said it is 3x5 or nothing. The cost is awful.

 

I went to a few local flag/banner shops. I can get a simple gold/blue flag (2 x 3) for about $12. I'm sure I can find iron-on or sew-on lettering for a resonable price. (unlike the $2.20 per letter price the scout shop wants).

 

The problem would be the wolf symbol in the center of the flag. I have no idea how I would duplicate that symbol.

 

Anyone have any ideas?

 

I have never seen a patch or decal that duplicates the red/black wolf in the center of the pack flag.

 

 

[sctmom]

Maybe someone who does silk screen transfers could do it. Check with someone who prints t-shirts for groups.

 

[Twocubdad]

Make a pattern of the emblem on a photocopy machine, enlarging the image until you have it the size you want. Get a piece of the blue flag material and pin or tape the pattern to it. Then just cut the emblem out. You don't have to precisely follow every detail of the pattern. In fact, the pattern will be rough, depending on the size of the original and the number times you have to enlarge it. For the border and lettering, you can clean up the pattern by straightening out all the lines before cutting.

 

Once you have the pattern cut out, you're best bet will be to glue it to the red background (check with the banner maker or a fabric shop to find out what kind of glue to use). You may or may not want to sew the edges of the emblem to the background, depending on whether or not you think it will fray or how you think the glue will hold up. I would think the banner maker can help you with that process.

 

It's a time-consuming process and takes some hand work, but is really pretty easy and straight forward. I used a similar process to make cub scout logos out of adhesive vinyl for a banner our boys carry in parades. Sign makers can to it all on a computer with a scanner, but they charge a fortune for it. I had them do the lettering, which is fairly inexpensive, and did the hand work myself.

 

That may be another option to look at -- having a vinyl banner made instead of a real flag. On outings, you can post the banner and leave the flag at home. When we march in parades, our pack carries the American and pack flag along with the banner I made. The banner has all the same info as the pack flag, but because it's carried horizontally, it's much more readable and better identifies the group.

 

[Bob White]

Perhaps taking a look from a different angle will help. The flag is nylon, an all weather all purpose, washable material. Make a good crrying sleeve to help protect in and it should last many, many years.

 

As far as the handling and the weight the problem is likely the pole and not the flag. If typical you have a hard wood plag pole wich even by itself is very weighty for a young scout. Consider swithing to a lighter material such as aluminum. I bet that would solve the problem.

 

BW

 

[Twocubdad]

That's true, Bob, but our pack flag includes about 75 ribbons, some of which are relatively fragile. The flag is also permanently mounted to the wooden pole and hauling the base around isn't that practical. It would be nice to have a second, smaller pack flag we could hoist on the flagpole on campouts. But I don't see spending several hundred dollars on one, though.

[Bob White]

Consider moving the ribbons to a separate display pole and mounting the flag to a lighter pole. A pine stand with a wide base would be lighter for travel and work just as well.

 

Since you know the smallest the flag comes is 3X5 perhaps it would be easier, cheaper and more efficient to modify the things around the flag than to modify the flag itself.

 

Don't raise the bridge, lower the river.

 

BW

[forestengr]

There are den flags available for purchase but we use custom made den flags as we have a logo we have developed specific to our Pack. Each den flag is coor coded as to rank, i.e. tigers/orange, cubs/blue, and webelos/red. They have the logo and den number on them/ It cost us $5 for each one and we attached them to the walking sticks you can get at a scout store.

[SC_Pack428]

I must say that I find it a little insulting that the BSA does not even offer a smaller version of the flag.

 

Every day we see examples of our armed forces proudly carrying smaller versions of the USA flag. Yet, the BSA has some "problem" with 7 year old scouts carrying less that a 3 x 5 flag.

 

Let's face it. BSA does not have a person sitting in some room sewing these flags by hand. The job of creating these flags is subcontracted to some flag company. That same flag company could easily make other size flags.

 

The bottom line is GREED. BSA has a monopoly on this merchandise. The bigger the flag, the bigger the "mark up".

 

I should not have to "adjust" the pack to the flag. The flag should adjust to the pack. We have kids in BSA today in wheelchairs or that have other disabilities. We make all sorts of changes to buildings or events to allow them to participate. I think that is great. However, we can't make a smaller flag so maybe one of them can carry it.

 

I repeat, if the United States Armed forces has no problem with smaller versions of the MOST sacred flag, then the BSA is "way out there" thinking that smaller versions of its flag are somehow disrespectful.

 

 

 

[Bob White]

I hope you are speaking out of frustration and not from thinking long and hard about this. It would not be possible to produce a flag at every possible size to fit every opinion.

 

In over 30 years in scouting and working with hundreds of units this is the first time that anyone has said to me a 3X5 nyon flag is to big and heavy.

 

The problem again is not the flag. Weigh the flag against the ribbons and pole and you will see where your problem lies.

 

You said the flag is "permanently" attached to the pole. I truly doubt that. It is attached through two eyelets in some manner. If you are getting this disgusted over a small n ylon flag how in heaven do you handle the real problems in your life.

 

You have other options then a smaller flag. Please consider them.

 

Bob White

[SC_Pack428]

First of all, I handle the "real" problems in my life just fine, thank you.

 

Secondly, I think it is wonderful that you have been involved in scouts for 30 years. However, just because no one has complained about the size of the flag in the last thirty years does not make it any less of a problem to some people.

 

Look at camping gear. Camping gear from 30 years ago is a joke compared with what is available today. The products adjusted to the consumer.

 

If we did everything the same as "30 years ago" there would still be a lot of kids not allowed to be in BSA.

 

Change is not always a bad thing!!

 

 

Finally, to say that a flag could not be made in "every possible size" is plain silly. True, it could not be made to every length/width combination. However, visit any flag store and you will see that there are about 5 standard flag sizes. The BSA could easily offer flags in a few of these standard sizes. Think about it. The BSA does not expect every scout to wear the same size uniform. They offer a range of sizes and options. We don't expect a Tiger Cub to put on the uniform of a Webelo and "grow into it"

 

Yes, I have other options. The point is that I should have options that allow me to adjust the product to the pack and not the pack to the product.

 

You may think I am some "lone wolf" on this topic. However, when I presented this problem at a local flag store, I learned something interesting. I WAS NOT THE FIRST. The clerk explained to me that numerous packs had made this request over the years.

 

The most common solution:

Buy an inexpensive, stock navy/gold flag and write the pack info on it with a laundry marker. Boy, I'll bet that makes for some attractive displays.

 

The bottom line is still Monopoly and GREED.

 

 

[Twocubdad]

Okay everybody, breathe, two, three, four.....

 

For the record, I was the one who said our pack flag has a lot of relatively fragile banners and is "permanently" attached to the pole. True, nothing is really permanent, but in this case it is screwed onto a nice wooden pole with a Cub emblem on top. Screwing and unscrewing the flag from the pole repeatedly will eventually strip the holes, which is why we don't fool with it. Plus, the whole rig is matched with an American flag and therefore we leave it indoors for formal occasions.

 

If our priority was to take the flag camping with us, we could certainly make other arrangements. But that's not a priority for us, it was SC-Pack428 who raised that point.

 

I will add that I don't think BSA flags are priced the way they are because of greed. No one is getting rich off flag sales. Its more likely a matter of control and bureaucratic arrogance. Why are the only flags offered top-of-the line? Can they not offer a generic, screen-printed flag without all the expensive hand lettering? The insignia guide acknowledges a difference between a field uniform and an activity uniform. What's wrong with doing the same with the flags?

 

I don't see a big issue here. If SC's pack wants to make a smaller pack flag, good for them.

[Bob White]

I apologize to both twocubdad and to SC-PACK428 for confusing the two posts. I agree there is nothing wrong with trying to find a way to make a smaller flag it just seems to me to be the more difficult of all the options. I do not see how the BSA is greedy because of limited flag sizes but each to his own opinion. I just don't see the need to attack the program over this issue.

 

BW(This message has been edited by Bob White)