Are religious services optional?

[smaster101]

Ive been a scoutmaster for about 12 years, and have never encountered a situation like this one before. Last year at summer camp it was Sunday morning and we were getting our scouts ready to attend church services. Earlier in the week I had told them that every scout was expected to attend the religious service of their choice; Jewish services had been held Saturday night and Catholic and Protestant services were held on Sunday morning. This is a camp tradition that has never been challenged before in our troop.

 

A father of one of our first year scouts came up to me and told me that his son would not be attending any services, because their family did not believe in any organized religion. This took me by surprise and unfortunately my response was not well thought out. First, I told the father that it was required of all scouts and that it was not optional for his son not to go. He still protested, and I then told him that every scout swore duty to God as part of the Scout Oath, and that it was required to believe in God in some way to remain a scout. I explained that the scouts were exposed to some religion at camp in terms of a blessing before each meal. Our troop also has a tradition of saying an evening prayer around the campfire. Its usually led by one of the older scouts, and they actually look forward to it each night. This father had been present for a couple of these campfire prayers and had not voiced any objection. The dad said his family were not atheists, just anti-religion. To further complicate things, the dad told me that two of his sons friends felt the same way and would not be going either.

 

At this point I was fuming. I told the dad that what he chose to do with his son was up to him, but that the other two scouts would be going to church regardless. At that I left them alone to decide for themselves what to do. I felt rather bad getting involved in a personal family preference, but as scoutmaster I felt that I had to set the requirement for all the scouts in my troop. If I made it optional for one or two not to attend Im sure that many or most would bag out of going.

 

I later discussed the situation with the Camp's Protestant Chaplain, who agreed that it was correct to make it a requirement for scouts to attend a service of their choice, and suggested that I have our troop committee discuss this with the fathers of the boys involved.

 

The situation turned out very strange. The scout whose dad I confronted went to the Protestant services and later told his dad that it was rather enjoyable. One of the other scouts dad showed up and walked off with his son just as everyone was leaving for services. I learned later they sat quietly by the pond and meditated, which may be a euphonium for fishing.

 

Let me tell you what I did for summer camp this year. In the annual pre-camp letter I send home to parents, I told them that attending religious services was expected of all scouts, and that if any parent has an objection to this they need to discuss it with me before camp.

 

My question for this forum is, do I have the right to insist that the scouts attend religious service when a parent says his son doesnt have to? Do you folks think the approach I took for this year is correct? Any other suggestions would be appreciated.

 

 

 

 

[sctmom]

Just my two cents worth....

 

My family does not attend church or feel we belong to a particular organized religion. I have only seen a couple of "vespers" in Cub Scout Camping. I saw nothing to object to. I would in fact think that Summer Camp is a great time for my son to experience a religious service -- with friends, most likely outdoors, an upbeat program aimed at young boys.

 

I would object if I felt the service was only for one extreme denomination, forced the boys into stating their faith, tried to get the boys to join a particular church, was a "fire and brimstone" type service, or any other extreme. For example, attending a private high school, we once had "Bible Lessons", taught by a local preacher who told us HIS church was the ONLY right church and the Catholics were heathens. There was so much more he could have taught us instead. Our school was not related to a church and we had various types of Protestants in attendance. We may have had some Catholics and just didn't know it.

 

Could you have someone else in your organization talk to the parents who object? Find out specifics of what they are afraid of. Someone who could tell them what the services are like.

 

[evmori]

At summer camp, we have camp wide vespers on Tuesday evening. For the last 3 years, I have put together a vespers service instead of going to the camp wide service. We invite another Troop to join us. It has gone very well.

 

One point of the Scout Law is "A Scout is reverent." Defining that point can be tough. A Scout is also to do his duty to God. Defining duty can be tough.

 

I think the approach you took considering the situation was correct. As far as requiring Scouts to attend a service, I have no problem with that. I do the same at camporees we attend where there are Saturday night services.

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

[le Voyageur]

The Scout Oath and Law are specific toward God, not religion. Maybe a sit down and a face to face with parents might be in order to find a workable middle ground.

However, you do not have the right, or the authority as a Scoutmaster to usurp a parent's prerogative no matter their belief system even if it is in conflict with your own.

Fiats, and personal edicts will eventually drive a wedge through your membership body, and destory all your good works leaving ill will.

Again, compromise, and finding a middle ground meeting BSA standards should be your goal........

[smaster101]

To SCTMOM: thanks for your comments. I'm Catholic, but according to people I've talked to, the Protestant services at our camp are very nondenominational and exactly what you suggest they should be - an upbeat service targeted at young boys. Maybe thats why this particular scout told his father the service was not that bad.

[eagle90]

The non denominational service at our summer camp are very simple and yet inspiring. A few simple hymns, a prayer or two, and a short sermon, usually on the beauties of nature, working together, serenity, etc. Don;t see how anyone can object to that. I really think you did the right thing in your situation, and sounds like you have a sound plan for this year.

 

[Bob White]

Ditto le Voyageur

 

Bob

[eisely]

smaster101,

 

I don't know where you go to camp, but those are much stronger traditions than I have seen or experienced. I have to agree with le Voyageur and Bob White, that this could drive a wedge into your unit. My sense is that units are free to determine the extent to which they wish to create these kinds of traditions. Some troops consist of boys of one faith and adhere to the requirements of that faith, for example orthodox jewish practices. Scouts who do not want to do that join different troops.

 

This should be discussed in committee and clarified. I don't think there is anything to prevent a unit from establishing these kinds of requirements, but they need to be thought through and then communicated ahead of time. I can't see the wisdom of forcing boys to attend services they don't want to attend.

 

 

[MomScouter]

I have never read anything in any BSA literature that requires a boy to attend any kind of religious service. Being reverent and doing their duty to God does not mean attending 'non-demoninational' services, but rather to be true to their spiritual beliefs. A Scout can be reverent and do his duty to God without being a member of any organized religion.

[jmcquillan]

I'm not particularly religious in the standard "organized religion" sense. My wife and I both grew up in a Congregationalist Protestant church and were even married there. In the years since, we've grown somewhat distant from the "church", but not from that which we call God. Our God is not defined in strict terms as organized faiths may define him/her...but he/she is there for us all the time, and we've never questioned his/her existence...just the terms by which he/she might be defined in organized religion. Something is there. Something watches over us. Something guides us, if we ask for guidance. And that something will care for us after this life, wherever that may be...Heaven, as defined in organized religion and the Bible, or somewhere else. We do not feel the need to worship him/her in a specific manner, or in a specific house of worship, or on a specific day. He/she is there all the time, wherever we are. And he/she knows, if he/she is as omnipotent as we think, that we believe, and will follow. Our sons and their wives pretty much follow the same path. Ours are homes of caring, loving, helping, and believing. We just do not believe that centralizing our focus on our God in a specific manner, house of worship, or book is necessary. Are we Christian? Are we Jewish? Are we Muslim? Dunno...! We were brought up Christian, so I suppose you could tack that label to us as much as any.

 

Point is, we're not aetheist, nor agnostic. We believe. We just don't go to church with y'all, and don't feel the need. And we don't feel particularly bad about that. We are, indeed, quite a happy bunch.

 

And there's a growing number of folks out there who believe as we do. In Scouting, we need to be aware of that, especially as it pertains to "A Scout is Reverent". A boy or family who proclaims disbelief is quite a far cry from one who proclaims not the need to attend or partake in regular services, no matter how ecumenical they might be. My sons and I always attended whatever services were being offered at whatever Scouting venue we might have been attending at the time, but we did that out of respect for the tradition, the Scouting family, those who felt the need, the companionship, and the love for each other...not the requirement. We fulfilled that in our own way. And we must be always cognisant of the fact that not everyone feels the need to worship as most do in the traditional organized fashion. That does not make them any less in the eyes of whatever God or deity they do worship, in their own way.

 

Bottom line, we should not be forcing members of our BSA fellowship, young or old, to attend and worship as we might. Ours may be the position to encourage, but it is also the position and responsibility to seek understanding or the ways of others, so that we do not tread unnecessarily on their traditions and beliefs.

 

The Dad in the initial post identified himself as not being aethiest, just anti-religion. That statement, while perhaps true, may be a little strong. Perhaps he, as do I, has his own way and tradition, and feels not the need, as do I. Perhaps those words were spoken in anger, as were some of yours?

 

Peace.

[Quixote]

smaster101 - another way to handle it is while the other boys are in services that the few scouts who have a problem going to the camp services stay at camp in their tents or by the lake (basically wherever they can be quiet) either reading their bible/koran, etc. or meditating or whatever they do to satisfy their reverance and duty to God.

[berkshirescouter]

I think that Scouts should attend something. Our councils summer camp has a true nondenominational service not just nondenominational Christian. Which I think would satisfy all. I think it is a little too watered down but thats another thread.

This should be the service for your 'not affiliated' scouts and hold it at the lake if thats what they want. Now a discussion or quite time would that be ok?

That is also a question, what is a service? I have seen the books that national puts out. Comments?

 

Paul

[shemgren]

Having served as a Chaplain for the Cub Scout camps in my council, I have strived to provide services that are upbeat and not aimed at any particilar faith. The format I use is a Pentetoch reading (the first 5 books of the Bible and the Koran), a message usually on Scout Ethics and an offering for the World Friendship Fund.

 

As far as mandatory service attendance, IMHO, duty to God and the Scout Law point of Reverant means following the religous practices of your family, while respecting the faith of others. B-P felt that belief in God was important to be a well rounded indivdual, and in training, they take pains to explain that Scouting is non-sectartian, which means the BSA does not define God or the practices of worshiping God. (See the SM's Handbook, the Cub Scout Leader Book and the Declaration of Religous Princple on the Adult Aplication).

In Scouting, we are striving to help boys to become well rounded adults, and some people do not participate ogranized religous activities, and we MUST respect that (a Scout is Reverant).

 

If such an situtation arose in my unit, I would talk to the parent, excuse the Scout from the services and discuss the issue with committee as soon as possible to clarify the parents views. A public discussion in front the Scouts should be avoided.

 

That the Scout enjoyed service was proably due to the novelity of attending a "fun" religous service.

 

 

 

[ozemu]

Maybe if the tradition of having services, as smaster101 has described, is strong there could be an additional service / discussion about god and reverence. I know where I would go if the spiritual menu had Catholic, Protestant, Jewish and a forth session for the rest of us - where god and reverence could be looked at. Personally I would be homeless if the only choices were C,P and J.

 

 

[slontwovvy]

Try making your own service. Base it on the twelve points of the Scout Law. Try to find different biblical passages that represent each. Offer time for individual prayer and reflection. Add in other religious bits. Works well, gets boys to think about religious life in a new way, and is non-denominational.

 

Just a suggestion.