Program below Tiger

[momandscout]

I was wondering if the BSA was considering a program below Tiger Cubs? I've been looking (for personal knowledge of programs) at other scouting organizations in other countries and how they are run. Many have a rank refered to as Beaver instead of Tiger. It is a 2 year program covering 6 to 8 yos or kindergarten AND 1st grade. Canada's even covers 5yos as does the Daisy Girl Scouts (they say K or ages 5&6).

 

There is a fear that adding younger boys inturn dumbs down the program. It doesn't need to be dumbed down, just start teaching them younger. The Cub Scouts are divided into dens/rank for a reason, to seperate the age groups. For the pack meetings, it is a time to show what you have done and 'show off' something you learned like a song or skit. Everybody can do this the best they can. For other things like a large group program like safety, the leaders can decide if an age participates or has a seperate program based on the same things. This can also be an insentive to stay in scouts, to get to do things at an older age.

 

I know when my older son (now 10 in Webelos 1) was Kindergarten age, he wanted to join scouts with his cousin (Wolf then) and was so upset when he couldn't. I know this happens a lot in other families as well. About 5yo is when they want AND CAN do things, so start then.

 

Anyway, just a question if they are thinking about it.

 

Interested parent

momandscout

 

 

[SR540Beaver]

Basically, cubs covers this range:

 

6 years old - 1st grade - Tigers

7 years old - 2nd grade - Wolves

8 years old - 3rd grade - Bears

9 years old - 4th grade - Webelos 1

10 years old - 5th grade - Webelos 2

 

There is some overlap of age because of when birthdays fall. Just how much younger do you want it to go? Pre-school age? Younger kids always want to do what older kids are doing. Many Cubs want to do Boy Scout activities, but just are not up to the task of handling camp stoves and cooking and pitching tents by themselves. Some can, but many can't.

[sctmom]

Girl Scouts seem to be successful with Kindergarten aged children. In some areas they are now letting 4 year olds join as Daisies.

 

I also have the same question, has BSA considered having a program for Kindergarteners?

 

[NJCubScouter]

I wouldn't be surprised if national was considering it. I have seen it suggested in online forums enough times, the idea must have filtered up the line by now. It would bring in more fees, I mean members. Plus maybe that way they could get rid of the leftover orange shirts faster, at least the extra-small sizes.

 

Just kidding, mostly.

 

I personally do NOT think Cubs should start in kindergarten. I think many of the boys in Tigers now are really too young to get a lot out of the program, at least in the fall of first grade. I do see the benefit in starting them a bit before they are really ready, so that when they ARE ready, they are already signed up and don't have to decide whether to join. They are already there. But that's for Tigers -- in my school district those are boys who are between 5 years 11 months and 6 years 11 months old when they get started in September. Roll that back a year -- as early as 4 years 11 months old! -- and I really don't think more than a few of them would be anywhere close to ready. It's really too soon, in my opinion.

 

Also, there is the burnout factor. Right now boys are in Tigers-Cubs-Webelos for a bit more than 4.5 years before they cross over, and that is enough time for a lot of kids to decide they have had enough. Do we really want to increase that to 5.5 years?

 

As for Daisies, I don't know if that provides any support for Cubs starting younger. One of my daughters was a Daisy, and this is 10 years ago now so I don't remember it with precise clarity, but I do seem to recall wondering at the time what she was really getting out of it. On the other hand, the average 5-year-old girl is better at sitting down for a meeting than the average 5-year-old boy, and specifically is more interested in the artsy-craftsy stuff, so I don't know how valid the comparison is.

(This message has been edited by NJCubScouter)

[cubmom47129]

I also had my daughter in the daisy, (a very long time ago) and by the 3rd year, she was totally burn out. She ended up quiting because she didn't want to do anymore.

 

Now my son, who is a wolf, is loving every minute of scouting. He is thriving off the program. And my youngest one is looking forward on joining the scouts, like his brother, in a couple of years.

 

So want I am saying is in my opinion :that, as the cub scout goes I feel like Tigers should be the youngest group. The attention span isn't that long and the boys do seem to lose interest in the meeting very quickly. Also it really seems to give the younger ones something to look forward too.

 

cubmom47129

[BOYSOFMINE]

I had so many siblings with my tiger group and since it is mandatory to have the families with the tigers we included the youngers. I gave them the name of chipmonks, t-shirts, hats and I made up booklets with the guidelines and etc, my tigers had and they not only did everything the tigers did they were just as good if not better. Out of those 4 boys and 2 girls (yeah girls) all 4 boys joined my tiger group this year and are much more involved and better behaved than the new tigers. I now have a den of 12 tigers, a little large but I have the most involoved parents you can imagine. We probably should have split the den but could not get another leader and we are lucky enough to use the school cafeteria for our meetings. Do not sell the younger boys short. Even my four year old son sits beautifully through all the meetings and makes everything my tigers doand understands just about everything we have taught the tigers. The only limits a child has are the ones we put on them. I would have loved to added the chipmonks again this year but since the families interested do not have older siblings our pack thought we should not push. I do have one sibling that is again included this year and he is awarded non scout beads and badges along with the tigers for all the hard work he puts into each meeting. Just my 2 cents.boysofmine

[SR540Beaver]

Boysofmine,

 

If the chipmunks do the same work as the Tigers, don't they then turn right around the following year and repeat everything they did the prior year?

[BOYSOFMINE]

No, I will follow the guidelines but I will find a different way to do a craft, meeting etc. For instance when it comes to making a scrapbook page he just makes a different one then the others for an event in his life. I find it easier to allow the boys to be creative rather than forcing them to be exact.Last week we followed the strike up the band, I brought in things from my recycle bin, papers, markers, wood, copper pipe, dryer vent hose and let them make their own instruments after we talked about he very first instrument a man might make. In December this year we deviated and spent the month working on mangers from wood, clothes pins, felt, straw. They were amazing and the kids would not let the parents help them. Each was their own peice of art.It gets tuff sometimes but by using my notes from last year I just try to put a different spin on what we do.Sorry so long. boysofmine

[Quixote]

I think that even at that age, they wouldn't mind repeating EXACTLY what they did the year before - my 5 year old can't even remember what he did earlier in the day, let alone a year ago.

 

My youngest son has wanted to be a scout since he was 3 and has a pack t-shirt as well as an old hat and neckerchief that he wears on regular occasions - such as yesterday (with shorts) and pretends to have scout meetings just like big brother. He will go to the Pack Pinewood Derby this week as well and race a car with his brother (in the judges division - the Pack uses the Troop to provide judges for the cars and lets the boys bring their old cars or build a car and race it in a seperate class). The little one can't wait till 1st grade and i agree that it would be possible to start at K, but the pack meetings would be even more of a mess...

[acco40]

I am in violent agreement with a few of the posters. I've have two sons and a daughter. The oldest boy started Scouts as a Wolf (second grade) and the second boy as a Tiger, i.e. first grader. (could not wait two years to join his brother in scouting). My daughter, joined Girl Scouts in Kindergarten. She (and I believe most girls at this age) was better at sitting still and doing things than the boys in the same age group.

 

I have my suspicions that the BSA has lowered the program one year in an attempt to remedy the big drop-off in enrollment that occurs between Cub Scouts and Boy Scouts. The Tiger program (once more of an option and out on a limb) has been fully integrated into the Pack. The Webelos program with more emphasis on the tan shirt, singular Webelos Badge (no longer will wear Wolf, Bear, arrow points, etc.) has become "junior" Boy Scouts in my estimation. Society, not just the BSA, seems to push our children to grow up and do things earlier and earlier.

 

We (USA) have fallen into the trap of believing that introducing children to formal education (pre-school programs, head start, etc.) at an earlier age will improve academic performance. Statistics show otherwise. Kindergarten used to be optional in this country forty years ago and now it seems that almost 100% of the children have some sort of preschool. Countries that don't start children with formal education until 6 or 7 perform much better in language and math skills at the high school level than the children of the USA. While cause and effect are difficult to prove, I believe we are pushing our kids to "perform" way to early. I also believe we tell ourselves we are doing it for our children but we are really doing it for ourselves. As a society, we seem to be pushing raising our children to others more and more.

 

Sorry for my rambling, but I hope the BSA does NOT lower age requirements or institute a new lower age program.(This message has been edited by acco40)

[Twocubdad]

Ditto. You think there are issues between 11- and 17-year-old Boy Scouts? Consider some of the issues for a Pack outing including a 5-year-old kindergardener and an 10-year-old Webelos II.

[scoutldr]

Showing my age here...in the 60s, boys were eligible to join at age 8. The ranks were Bobcat, Wolf, Bear, Lion, then at age 10, you went to a Webelos den for a year. UNtil then, you stayed in the same den, and worked on achievements and electives at your own pace with your parents. The "Den Mother" just recorded what your parent wrote in your book. At age 11, you graduated to a Scout Troop, regardless of what your peer group was doing, and, as I recall the AOL was automatic as you walked over the bridge. BTW, the term "WeBeLoS" originated from those ranks, Wolf, Bear, Lion, Scout.

 

FF to today, where I see that MOST advancement work (and even religious awards) is done in the den meeting, and if the DL doesn't do it, it doesn't get done. Maybe that's a symptom of today's society, but I would rather see the parents taking a more active role.

[SR540Beaver]

sctldr,

 

I was a Cub in the 60's too. I pretty much remember it the way you do with staying in the same den and working on advancements at your own pace. I remember having two different den mothers. I think that is because one gave it up and another took over. That was back when you had one cap and one neckerchief too. I became a Webelos in 1967. From what I remember, the year I became a Webelos was when they did away with the Lion rank and put out the Webelos book and went with the plaid neckerchief. BTW, WeBeLoS means We'll Be Loyal Scouts. Says so in my 1967 copyright Webelos book.

 

PS I don't think the AOL was automatic, I didn't get it. However, my memory is fuzzy. I quit as a Webelos and didn't go to Boy Scouts. My Webelos den leader creeped me and my brother out. We may have quit early instead of staying thru to the end. I'll have to ask my mommy. (This message has been edited by kwc57)

[acco40]

Getting of topic again ...

 

Ah, yes the 60s! Den Mothers galore and do you know why the Cubmasters were always men? Because the BSA did not allow female Cubmasters until the early 70s! (1972?) So much for the "if you don't like the rules, go start another program" crowd.

 

The reason we had den mothers were because den meetings were after school at one of the boys houses and dad was at work and mom was at home. Only Pack meetings were held after the sacred dinner hour (ALWAYS 5:30 PM at my house). That is why a snack was often served at den meetings. Now with den meetings right after dinner, why have a snack? Now who the heck knows when dinner will be, families rarely eat together at a sit down meal and does anyone hold den meetings after school and before dinner anymore? And yes, we didn't have to buy new hats and neckerchiefs every year. The old Cub Scout hats were great! Cubs should be in the traditional uniform (similar to present day Wolf) throughout the program! No Tigers either! If I remember correctly (50/50 chance of being correct) the Lion rank was a full year and then wasn't Webelos like a three month or half year transition period to prepare for Boy Scouts? So after earning the Bobcat (easily done) the boys were traditionaly Wolf (1 yr), Bear (1 yr), Lion (1 yr) and then Webelos, who worked on AOL for a few months.

[SR540Beaver]

Acco, I believe you are right about Lions for a year and then Webelos for a few months. I think it was around 1967 that the Lion rank and book formally disappeared and Webelos replaced it as a formal rank with a book. There were no Webelos 1 and 2's either, just Webelos. I don't recall ever doing any fundraisers back then either.