Den leaders dealing with troubled den meetings

[pack330]

I am looking for some ideas on how to help a Wolf den leader with dealing with 7 very active/disrespectful boys. We have tried the candle burning down for a pizza/trip idea but it didn't work. The boys spend their time not listening, showing off, and being very disruptive all way around. My den leader is crying after every meeting. She seems to not beable to get control of these boys. They also talk back to her and show her no respect. Most of the parents do join the den meetings but don't always help her keep them under control or feel helpless themselves. HELP!

[SR540Beaver]

I wish I had some answers for you. I'm just a parent and not active in the leadership. My son Joined as a Webelos just two months ago. He loves going to the pack meetings. Why shouldn't he? He is a 9 year old 4th grader who looks for any opportunity to hang with other boys his age regardless of where or what. But for me, I am totally frustrated!!! We had a meeting tonight and I had to go sit in my truck for 15 minutes to settle my nerves. I want my son in scouting, but this is not what I bargained for. I have never seen such chaos in all my life. The leadership sees it and they are trying to deal with it, but have not been successful yet. We have a female (nothing wrong with that) den leader who is fairly meek except for yelling at her hyperactive kid. We have 14 boys in the den. We have a new assistant den leader who is trying to help. One idea was to keep all 14 boys in the den but split them up into seperate groups and rooms during the meetings. In fact, tonight they were split into three groups and it was still mass chaos. All of the boys have to go see what their buddies are doing in the next room. Trying to keep them organized and focused seems to be about like herding cats. I know people who see me posting here probably hate for me to keep bringing up sports teams. But, the problems I see in the pack meetings were something that we didn't have when my son was playing baseball or basketball. Probably because they were doing drills and staying busy and didn't have time to act up. But beyond that, the coaches could be tough abd yes, they occasionally yelled at the boys. They were never demeaning in any way, just got their attention and let them know what was expected of them. My experience was that the boys tended to rise to the level of expectation put upon them. While I don't think many kids would stay in scouts if every meeting was a "preaching" session about behavior, I think yanking a few kids chains would go a long way. One of the problems I see is lack of committment as in a team sport. Cubs is too casual. It seems too much like the recreational sports leagues where all 15 kids on the baseball team take the field instead on just 9. Or where they get to keep swinging until they hit the ball and no score is kept. The people who play that way say they want the kids to have "fun". That is what I see right now with cubs. The word fun is mentioned all the time. I'm all for fun, but you can have discipline, learn something valuable and have "fun" at the same time. I've got a feeling that what you and I are experiencing is going on a lot. One thing about sports, the coaches were up front with the parents in telling them that they were in charge out on the field and if the boys goofed off and wouldn't pull their weight, they were going to get yelled at and possibly sitting on the bench while others played. I think far too many den leaders are afraid to call the shots while a bunch of parents are sitting in the room for fear that the whole den will walk out and never come back.

[evmori]

Has this Den Leader had a talk with the parents? Might not be a bad idea. She could explain the problem & also tell mom & dad that since the Cubs are so disruptive they might not get the requirements finished in time therefore not earning their rank. I would also have the CM & CC present for this meeting. One more thing, schedule the meeting the same time as the regular den meeting and include the Cubs.

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[NativeTexan]

I have 8 boys in my den and 4 of those are either ADD or ADHD. The other 4 are extremely active 8 year old boys. The first couple of den meetings last year were a mess resulting in significant hair loss for this den leader, who quite frankly, can't afford to lose any more! So I started completely over and implemented some changes.

 

The first thing I did was have a den meeting with all parents and boys. As a group we wrote down our den rules. It was a group decision and involved everything from rough-housing to disrespectful behavior. This list was posterboard size and was posted on the wall for all to see and remember. The next thing we did was discuss the consequences of violating our rules, which is typically a good talking too and a "time-out" to think about what was said. We also implemented the good behavior candle and agreed that any adult present can blow it out at any time they see rule violations. It was also obvious that these boys needed to blow off some steam before we could get anything done at the meetings. In response to this we now play some sort of physical game or activity outdoors if the weather permits for about 15-20 minutes. These changes have helped out tremendously. We no longer have to post the rules. The first boy to arrive lights the candle and the last to leave blows it out. The boys know the routine of the den meetings and our "problems" are significantly less and things get a little better each month. Hang in there.

[sctmom]

Talk to the parents and the boys. Have poster board and marker, have the boys come up with den rules. Lead them to the right ones.

 

Maybe institute a 3 strikes youre out type of deal. The 3rd time you are called down, you leave the meeting.

 

Tell the parents you must have their help.

 

One of the hardest thing to learn is that as the leader you are the leader of the boys AND the parents.

 

About the leader who spends a lot of time yelling at her own kid, I found it helped if one of the men in the pack just walked past my son and said come with me. They would get him busy with something, sometimes talk to him about treating me right, sometimes just made him sit and settle down. Realize I did thank them when they did this and pointed out to the other parents to feel free to get on to my child. Some parents arent like that.

 

Realize the boys will be active, but they must still respect the leaders and others. If not, they will be asked to leave. Same for parents and siblings.

 

Location, location, location. Is your meeting room too big or too small? Are there distractions in the meeting place?

 

No parents, boys or leaders should leave the meeting upset. Both of you have described situations that should NEVER exist.

 

Kwc, Fourteen boys is too many for one den, especially Webelos. That den must be split immediately.

 

If the boys have been sent into separate rooms, they STAY THERE. Even it means you stand in the doorway and physically block them.

 

Kwc, I think your comparison to sports is a good one. Unfortunately the parents you are dealing with may also be the ones who yell at coaches during games for pulling their son out of the game. This past spring I saw the son of one of the coachs argue with the umpire. I mean look him in the eye and argue! I was shocked this boy was not pulled out of the game. Dad just looked the other way. I told my son if I EVER saw him act that way, I would personally go on the field and pull him out of the game. He was not happy with some things the coach had him do and was not happy with some of the calls against him, but you respect the ones in charge.

 

Personally, I would never use a candle because of 2 reasons:

1) chance of fire on purpose or accidently

2) the boys that would spend the whole meeting looking and playing with the candle (that would be MY son)

 

Use the quiet sign. Just stand there saying nothing and staring at the ceiling until they finally realize you are there. May take awhile.

 

When talking to the boys, get down on their level. If they are on the floor, get on the floor. Don't do like one den leader I knew -- he had the boys lined up in chairs with their books and he sat behind a table. It looked and felt like school.

[CubsRgr8]

Here's what's working for me (so far!).

 

1) Training - as much and as often as possible.

 

2) Code of Conduct - the scouts brainstormed and we developed six rules of conduct. We made a poster that's up at every den meeting. (#1 rule - have fun).

 

3) Den Meetings - same time, place, day, every week. Yes, that's four den meetings a month. I don't feel compelled to try and get so much done at each meeting.

 

4) Commitment - tell the parents/scouts that scouting is a lot of fun but they have to participate out of den meeting times. It's not the den leader's role to do everything during den meetings.

 

5) Field trips - one a month AND attendance is a priviledge EARNED individually by behavior during den meetings.

 

Finally, 14 boys is way too many in a den, regardless of age. It's time to tell the Cubmaster to split the den in half. This is your chance to be a den leader and have fun, too!

[SR540Beaver]

I suggested splitting our 14 boy den into two dens to the Cub Master. He is at all of our meetings as his son is in the den. He said that for now they do not want to split theden, but want to split them into seperate groups and rooms during meetings. I didn't really get an explanation for why. To split them during meetings is practically the same thing, but not really. Since they are alll there at the same time and in adjoining rooms, you still end up with the same rowdiness with only a smidgen of control.

[acco40]

The first rule we emphasize in our Pack is that the den leaders choose the size of their den, not the Cubmaster (who should be little more than an emcee at Pack meetings) or the leader of the Pack, the Committee Chair. A rule I have for my den is that parents are welcome if they contribute to the den meeting, if not, they may (should) leave. I found that having two parents gossip, exchange recipes, talk about their son's school work, etc. is extremely disruptive even if not heard by the boys. Also, some boys act much better when mom and dad are NOT present. Some just the opposite. The biggest hurdle I had when the boys were Wolves was that MY rules differed from the rules at their house but they were expected to be followed none the less. The best method I've used to quiet down an attention seeking boy was to put him on stage! If he talks while others are talking, put him front and center and let him talk. They usually get very quiet.

[Pack38Scouter]

"Talking Feather" works great in one of my Dens but then it doesn't in another. When I was a Den Leader for my son's Tiger, Wolf, and Bear year, I had to tell the parents to just drop their boys off ... and stay to help if it was their turn to help (one parent plus my assistant and I deal with 10 boys). I had them draw up the rules and the consequences. We set boundaries as to where they can and can't go. I used the "talking feather" for one year and didn't need after that. I also used behavior marbles. Each boy gets a bag of 20 marbles, one for each of the Den meeting. If he misbehaved, then he gets one of his marbles taken up. He can only earn it back by doing at least 2 good deeds for his parents or family members. I also have alot of "beads" for attending the Den meeting, for completing activities, for attending Pack Meeting, for being voted as the best behaved scout by his peers, etc. The boys display these beads on their Den Doodle. Throughout the year, I got the parents to donate their McDonald's Happy Meal toys and put it in a Treasure Chest. The boy who got pick by his peers get to go the Treasure Chest. It's amazing how simple toys that they throw away at home become desirable. Part of the Den dues ... I used to purchase cheap toys. At the end of the year the scout with the most number of beads and marbles gets the first shot at these toys.

 

The other thing that worked well is that the Leader has to be very well prepared ... meaning, you have to do a lot of leg works ahead of time. Don't try to figure out how to use a hot-glue gun or how to assemble the bird house at the Den meeting. Keep a lot of xword puzzles and other small projects for those kids who speed through the Den project.

 

For ADD and ADHD, I simply asked his mom or father to stay with him and to interact with the boy. Wolf year is still a fun year for them. You will need a lot of parental assistant. For me, it took a while to get the boys to be respectful and "somewhat under control." They do mature ... believe it or not. Now ... you may think that they are the worst behaving Den, but you'll be surprise on how hard you are on their behavior after you have seen another Den! Talk back and disrespect has to be dealt with by the parents and all that the Den Leader can do is to correct the situation as it happens. I do know one thing ... your view point of disrespect and talk back may tolerable and non-issue to the boy's parents! I tried to get the boys in my Pack to at least address all parents and leader with a "Mr. or Mrs. and their first name." Believe it or not I got pushed back from two or three parents. They feel that it's not necessary to be that formal! I told them that it's is not formal but respectful.

 

kwc57, my answer to you is do what I did ... become a leader. That's what happened to my son's Tiger Den. The lady who volunteered (blessed her heart) over committed herself and could not deliver and the Den almost folded. I rolled up my sleeves and took over. I had a parents only meeting and laid down the ground rules .... "i.e. Thou shall help ... Thou shall help ... and Thou shall help!" I was short of saying "if you don't help ... you might want to have your son do something that he will enjoy!" They are 2nd year Webelos now and of the current 6, I still have 4 of the original 10 and they are close knit group. The other six moved to another state or out of the country through out our Cub Scouting years. Frustration is part of the volunteer package. The Cub Scout's Motto "Do Your Best" applies to adult as well as the Cubs! Also, the committment to Cub Scout is really up to the parent and the boy. In our Pack, the committment is shared between sports and Cub Scouts (and we have 130 boys). Sometimes, I see the boys out there practicing baseball in drizzly weather at 9:00pm ... I wish that they and their dad or mom would give 1/2 of that devotion to Cub Scout!

 

YIS

[insanescouter]

My thought here is a bit weird... and may has already been tried.. or is to far is left field.. don't know but will throw it out any way...

 

What are the boy being such a problem?

Are they board?

Are they being challenged mentally?

 

A saying I leave by when working with scouts is "Control through activity". Why if you give a boy a few seconds you have a fight.. you have to keep thing going non-stop for the entire time of the meeting if you have to stop to figure out what to do next - bammm you have a problem.

 

Has any one sat down with scouts, other then to get them to calm down and behave better, but actually talked to them to find out what is up, what they want to do, what they think should be done different, etc. I realize that these are young wolf scouts, but there answers might surprise you.

 

Also you may have to use unique forms of punishment... such as putting a scout in time out... also on the same line of the candle I used a Mascot with a Webelos den a stuffed bald Eagle. The den, or should I say Eagle Patrol instantly grew attached to the Eagle and they know if I, any other leader, or Den Chief put that Eagle in my box it meant trouble.

 

You may also what to try to find a way to provide greater leadership for that den. Such as extra Den Chiefs or maybe no Den Chiefs, also maybe more Assistant Den Leaders are needed.

 

The correct solution for you may not be what worked for other members of this group. So be creative, don't give up. Remember that old Boys Town saying "There is no such thing as a bad boy."

 

I hope this helps. If you would like to pick my brain in more detail post them here or email me.

 

InsaneScouter

http://insanescouter.com

webmaster.insanescouter.org

[Twocubdad]

I'm not a big fan of the behavior candle, but I do like having the boys write their own rules of behavior. The trick is, you need to have your own list of rules in advance, and the boys' rules need to wind up looking a whole lot like yours. You steer the discussion to make it work.

 

The thing that I notice from the original post is the crowd of parents hanging out, doing nothing to help the sitation. If they're sitting there, doing nothing while their sons act up, they are tacitly approving the bad behavior. They need to lead, follow, or get out of the way.

 

Having parents around is a two-edged sword. If they help control the boys (or at least their own), great. But if they don't, they're making the situation worse. It is difficult to correct a boy with their parent sitting there. I find it uncomfortable to do so (I always feel like I'm stepping on the parent's toes) and secondly, the boy thinks if his parent approves, then what ever he does is okay.

 

Ultimately, the Den Leader has to take control of the den and the key to that is setting expectations for how the boys should behave. At camp this summer, one of the moms was on a bullhorn going, "Boys, boys, please be quiet. We can't get started until you settle down. Boys, please be quiet, boys, boys...." etc. One of the Cubmasters stepped to the center and gave one, deep, baritone, "Hey!"

 

Immediate silence.

 

I don't mean this to be a sexist comment -- it could have easily been two men. But that Cubmaster had set the expectation that when he wanted your attention, he better get it. If the boys think the worse thing that happens if they disrespect or disobey you is that the candle gets blown out, well......

 

Next den meeting, have the boys create their behavior rules, but then have a very stern conversation about what happens if they violate the rules. Be a little menacing. We tell our boys that if they're disruptive, they go home. It usually takes only one boy being asked to leave the meeting to keep the rest in line. And if their's is one of the do-nothing parents in the back of the room, even better.

 

But make sure they understand they're not being kicked out of the den and that they are welcome back the next week. I'd even call a few days later to make sure they are coming back -- as long as they can behave themselves.

[Ghosthost13]

I found that this worked very well, with my Den & others as well. Up front I let everyone ( parents & Boys) know that I want everyone to have fun. But rules must be followed. If a child continues to be a problem and vey disruptive-I go to the parents of the child. I will tell the parent of the child that they will be required to attend all Den meetings, to keep their childs behavior in check. If they will not or the parent does not keep them in line, I then will dimiss them from my Den.

[littlebillie]

I've had mixed results with a performance contract. You set out guidelines and consequences for not following those guidelines - I try to state the 'rules' postively - more "I will" and less "I won't".

 

then the kids and parents review, sign and return the contracts.

 

consequences are incremental - short time out, long time out, out of the meeting, meeting with parents, etc.

 

This has worked well when you follow thru with the consequences. If the group is TOO big, you've already thrown yourself a monkey wrench. I don't like more than 8 boys for myself, but I like 6 best of all. That's just personal preference.

 

I've seen this approach fall flat on its face though - when the DL doesn't apply the consequences, or can't get some parental help in doings so - then, forget about it.

 

Even with an ACTIVE Assistant DL, it can be a challenge keeping up with the group activity. And if you have to be enforce and creat fun at the same time, it can get confusing - for you AND the boys. SO THE MORE THE PARENTS GET INVOLVED, the better. I like 2 deep with parent involvement, too - it lessens the chance of a parent having to deal with their own child (some tend to over-react, and some under react).

 

14 boys? ARRGGHHHH. Only reason i can think of for a situation like that is that no one's stepping up to the Den Leader plate..?

 

I've also seen a variant where the 'best behaved' or 'most helpful' or 'best Cub' of the meeting was awarded a floating pin (cobbed from a derby). Haven't tried this myself, but I've seen it help.