fairwell canvas camp tents?

[jtswestark]

We had to put some of our older guys into a few troop tents (Eureka Paragons) one year as we outgrew our campsite. They put cots in them and by the end of the week they had punctured the floor. Zippers went out due to the in and out traffic all week. Then they leaked from all that during the next downpour, soaking all their gear. What they thought was going to be a cool experience turned out to be miserable. I can fix a canvas tent leak with a roll of ductape or tarp.

Next year we moved to a larger campsite and was glad to have them all back in canvas tents with platforms.

[TAHAWK]

The camp we are attending requires at least 30 days notice that you intend to use your own tents (like those that keep skeeters out) or they fine you $30 per private tent. I guess when you are otherwise successful and filled up you can start whipping the customers into line.

[Abel Magwitch]

a $30 fine for using your own tents? Now that's robbery! what possible reason would there be for a council to charge you $30 dollars for using your own tents?(This message has been edited by abel magwitch)

[skeptic]

I would simply refuse to pay something like that. There is no way they could actually justify it; if you choose to use your own, then why would they care. The only even remote reason would be that they could have used any unused tent(s) in some other part of the camp. But that still would not be reason to try and charge you. Good luck collecting it.

[IM_Kathy]

my son's troop uses Eureka tents and never ruins a tent within a year - most are several years old. We really only buy more because the troop has grown. BUT, 1 troop rule is NO cots in troop tents. So the boys prefer the canvas camp tents so they can have the cots for summer camp.

 

I always bring my own tent based on the weather and if I have a tent mate. As a female I don't always have a tent mate. In the winter I like to have a small one as I'm usually the only female that will tent in the winter, otherwise if we aren't backpacking in I like to have a cot to sleep on so I'll take my larger one and I allow cots in my tent. But then I also buy cheaper tents on sale and don't worry too much if I rip up the floor. The other female that will tent with me and I both have cots that have bar legs that go across the width of the cot rather than 4 individual straight legs that are more likely to rip up a tent.

 

and if the camp were to try and charge me for using my own tent, I would not be paying that bill.

 

our camp has gone to giving a discount for using your own tents, but that is only if everyone in the troop does it... until they require everyone to use their own tents I don't see our troop switching. And if that happens we will have to buy a few more tents as almost all our scouts go to summer camp while on a weekend trip only 1/2-2/3 usually goes and with just a night or two we will fit those tents tighter when needed.

[SMT224]

We camp in our Troop tents the other 10 months of the year. Summer camp is fun not just because of all the activities, but because we are in the canvas tents as well. I really like the old tents - the smell on a hot day, opening all the flaps on a cool night, the sound during a rain, and being able to stand up to get dressed. To me it's part of the Scouting tradition, and I think I'd switch camps if they required us to use Troop tents.

[shortridge]

I suspect none of you who object to the $30 fine have ever been involved in the pre-camp tent set-up and campsite planning process, or you'd have a completely different viewpoint on the subject. That camp's approach is perfectly reasonable.

 

Getting ready for summer camp is more than just moving a bunch of supplies into place. The camp director has to crunch the numbers over and over, figuring which units can fit into which campsites. The camp staff has to move heavy tent materials into place and set them up in compact patrol sites, while repairing or replacing broken outriggers and holey canvas along the way. The tent setup process alone usually lasts several days - it's a very physically and logistically challenging project. Then, once units arrive, the camp director has to shuffle tents around to make up for the slight changes in attendance that have cropped up since registration that the units never bothered to report.

 

If a unit shows up on Sunday afternoon demanding that the platforms and 4x4s and outriggers and poles and canvas all be removed immediately so it can set up its unit tents -- that would be enough to make the most dedicated, patient CD blow a gasket. Camp staff members doing other jobs - like giving tours, doing medical checks, providing program area orientations, running swim checks, cooking dinner, etc. - then have to be pulled off their jobs to quickly tear down a bunch of tents because the troop failed to plan and communicate. You can't just show up and expect things to happen. That is extremely inconsiderate.

 

What TAHAWK described is not a $30 fine for using your troop's tents. It is a $30 fine levied on poor planners who were unable to decide a crucial detail of their summer camp program a month in advance and are now causing substantial problems for the hard-working staff who already busted their behinds to set up camp.(This message has been edited by shortridge)

[Abel Magwitch]

Nonsense Shortridge, There is more than one week of summer camp. Unless the campsite is extremely small, a troop could still set up their tents and leave the camp's tents alone. I have seen this done before.

 

If it's that big of a problem, the camp could make it known that if you do not make your choice on using troop tents prior to the 30 days, you have no choice but to use the camp's tents.

 

But to charge a $30 fine - that is just wrong.

 

I know at my council camp, it's the council who is always unprepared with program and supplies. Scouts pay their fee and expect the program that was promised by the council. Yet when the council doesn't deliver because they were unprepared with enough staff; program areas closed due to lack of staff or pools being out of service due to a lack of maintenance, don't you think the council is obligated to refund some of the fees they charged?

 

Doesn't happen.

 

Levying fines against a troop is just not conducive if you want that troop to support the council with an FOS drive.

(This message has been edited by abel magwitch)

[shortridge]

Abel,

 

Not knowing the details of TAHAWK's camp, neither of us is able to comment on the physical arrangements there. I can only speak from my experience working for five summers at a camp with very small campsites. There was zero room for troop tents to be set up alongside camp tents, unless you wanted them six inches from the campfire circle.

 

If it's that big of a problem, the camp could make it known that if you do not make your choice on using troop tents prior to the 30 days, you have no choice but to use the camp's tents.

 

All units still have this option. Once informed of the $30 fine, the troop could decide on the spot not to use its tents.

 

But if the leadership still insisted on using its own tents, yanking staff members out of other duties to tear down the entire campsite - and then to set it up again at the end of the week after the troop leaves - the camp is entirely justified in charging for that cost. You're talking 2-4 hours of time for several staffers. It's not just clearing the materials out, but moving them, storing them, folding the tents, etc. The extra cost tacked on to that would be what's known as a disincentive - effectively a penalty for inconsiderate behavior.

 

Really, what that troop is doing is affecting the program for all the other troops in camp by insisting the camp staff obey its whims on a moment's notice.

 

Put another way: Would you show up at a hotel and demand that the desk clerk remove the bed from your room because you brought your own? Try that, and you'd be laughed at and told to leave.

 

Abel, your camp and council definitely seem to have their own problems with program, and while I sympathize with you and would be the first to demand refunds, that's not the topic here.

 

To avoid the $30 fine, the only thing that units at TAHAWK's camp have to do is plan and communicate. Is that such a hard thing to ask?(This message has been edited by shortridge)

[Abel Magwitch]

Shortridge, after taking a few steps back, I do see your point. I do get blindsided by the poor experiences my troop has had over the years with the council. It wasn't always that way, but we have watched a slow progression of a loss of services by the council, yet somehow, the council achieves their quality status and the people who are far removed from the program applaud the fine job the council says it's doing at the annual dinners.

 

I will stand by just having a policy that for a troop who hasn't made their decision on tentage prior to 30 days will simply have to suffice using the camp's tents. I am totally against additional fines and fees being charged to units who are run by faithful and giving volunteers.(This message has been edited by abel magwitch)

[Stosh]

Why not just find a camp where tents are optional. If you don't want their tents, then it's no big deal. If you do, they're there rolled up ready to be put up.

 

The one camp I used to attend, there was a quartermaster request sheet the boys filled out. They needed X number of tents, X number of floor pallets, X number of stoves, X number of chuck boxes, X number of dining flies and they were all stacked in the middle of the site when we showed up. At the end of the week, they were restacked and we went home.

 

If you had your own gear, the X's above were entered in as a 0. When we got there, nothing was stacked in the site. We set up camp with our own stuff.

 

I can't figure out why this would be a problem to have a camp tent vs. troop tent set up. Maybe if one were to make it complicated enough, they could in fact charge a $30 fee to the process to make a few bucks.

 

Stosh

 

 

[prairie]

I miss those big old tents, my camp seems to have gone to all camper supplied shelter.

My first year somehow we didn't rate platforms so did not get the full experance till the 2nd year. Did like the face that they didn't flap in the slightest breeze and damped the sound a little, no zippers to mess with and dirt was swept off the edge for cleanup. Bugs were only a problem my last year, waves of spiders.

[Nike]

The Scout Camp on Catalina island is moving to shipping container architecture. It looks really cool. Here's the website:

 

http://inhabitat.com/shipping-container-cabins-designed-for-boy-scouts-on-catalina-island/

 

[moxieman]

Of course, I can't find it now, but I doubt National has dropped this guideline, or maybe they have.

 

Ten years ago, in writing, I found in some National guideline somewhere that for long term camping (like summer camp, jamborees, etc.) you must have a minimum of 35 square feet of covered tent space per youth.

 

A 4 man Timberline has 56 square feet. Throw on a vestibule and you gain another 14 square feet and meet that 35 per youth as long as you only put two youth in the tent.

 

It was thanks to that written guideline that I was able to convince my troop committee to allow us to refurbish our Timerberlines and purchase vestibules for the 2001 Canadian Jamboree.

 

But, of course, I can't find it now. Basically, I wanted to note that if this is still in effect that you need to keep it in mind if you have to bring your own tents to your summer camp (we don't).

[Huntr]

My understanding is that National is planning to use the nylon version of the canvas wall tents for the 2013 National Jamboree. My Council (NCAC) had some of each at the 2010. I liked the nylon better in that they had screen doors so you could get a breeze and still keep some of the bugs out.