Must parent attend Webelos camp ?

[WestCoastScouter]

Couple of questions ??

 

(1) If my Webelos den goes camping... must the boy's parent also attend ? or must we just comply with two deep leadership, (and Webelos must only sleep with their parent or with another scout/or alone.

 

(2) For Webelos-ree summer camp.... must the boy's parent attend ? or it is up to the Council that has the camp ?

[BluejacketScouter]

To #1...assuming two-deep leadership, and at least one leader has completed BALOO, and at least one leader has completed Outdoor Skills or OWLs, parents are not required to attend.

 

To #2...same as above.

 

To the unasked question...I would never discourage or prevent a parent from participating if they desired. I would also put that parent to work with specific tasks to do. Get the parent, keep the boy. Even though Webelos is the transition period from Cub Scouting to Boy Scouting, Cub Scouting is a FAMILY activity.

 

I will posit that two (trained) leaders are adequate, two leaders plus 2 parents is better.

[ScoutNut]

BSA National rules do NOT require adults trained in either BALOO, or Outdoor Leader Skills for Webelos Leaders, in order to be able to take a Webelos den on a den camp out. An individual council might have stricter rules, and require one, or both, but National does not.

 

West Coast, the Guide to Safe Scouting states, in bold tpeface -

 

"A Webelos Scout may participate in overnight den camping when supervised by an adult. In most cases, the Webelos Scout will be under the supervision of his parent or guardian. It is essential that each Webelos Scout be under the supervision of a parent-approved adult. Joint Webelos den-troop campouts including the parents of the Webelos Scouts are encouraged to strengthen ties between the pack and troop. Den leaders, pack leaders, and parents are expected to accompany the boys on approved trips."

 

This means that the parent/Webelos combo is the preferred way to go for a Webelos den camp out. However, it is possible for a Webelos to be supervised by an adult who is not his parent if the parent gives his permission. All other Guide to Safe Scouting Youth Protection rules (2-deep, sleeping arrangements, etc) must be followed. I would recommend including any and all parents as much as possible.

 

As for a council summer camp, Webelos-ree, or other, every council sets their rules for their Summer Camps based on BSA standards. These participation rules should be clearly stated up-front when the Webelos registers for the Summer Camp.

 

All of my council's Webelos only overnight Summer Camp sessions are parent/scout. Our Webelos-ree's/Webelos Woods, are one day events, with no overnight camping. These are a minimum of 2 adults, with 1 adult per 5 Webelos.

 

 

[BSA24]

Cub Scout Leaders should take Baloo training before leading overnighters.

 

Webelos leaders should take Outdoor Leader Skills for Webelos Leaders (OLSWL - also called "OWLS" colloquially) before leading any den overnighters for webelos scouts.

 

You must always follow youth protection, which means never be alone with any boy without another adult present as a witness. It should be called Adult Protection. To always follow YP while leading five or more boys on a camping trip means that you need about four adults to go. That allows two to go one way and two to go another in the event of an injury. I would say three is the absolute minimum - that allows for smoking breaks or going off alone for a minute to cool off your head if you get frustrated with the boys for a minute.

 

Thus, what is required and what you should do are two different standards.

 

Last, Cub Scouting is a FAMILY activity, but Webelos Scouting, when done correctly, is not. I always try to recruit parents to go with us as leaders, but only as leaders. We set very firm guidelines restricting certain behaviors on webelos outings. We don't allow mom to bring "secret cupcakes" to bail the boys out when they don't feel like cooking. We don't limit outdoor hikes and activities to accommodate out of shape parents. We don't allow the parents to carry the boys' gear or set up their tents. We don't allow the parents to make the boys food. We show them how to fend for themselves and let them try things. Basic things. Easy things. We always have a plan B. Plan B never consists of "Oh, look! Mommy brought everyone pizza!"

 

It is my firm belief that packs have 40 tiger cubs and 5 webelos scouts because the den leaders assigned at the tiger cub age end up running the webelos den eventually, and they are not proficient at scoutcraft enough to do it, usually.

 

Cub Scouting has a major training issue with not teaching enough scoutcraft to cub scout adult leaders. The huge differential between an old eagle scout running a den and a typical volunteer parent running a den is minimal with tiger cubs. With webelos scouts, it is a critical issue.(This message has been edited by BSA24)

[Eagle92]

Be advised that National at one time stated that OWL would be included in IOLS, so that you would only take one outdoor course for Webelos, Scouts, and Venturing. national did postpone that until this year, but some councils will accept IOLS in place of OWLS.

 

Plus as has been mentioned OWLS is not required by national, yet anyway, but councils can require it.

[Basementdweller]

Ah yes more bad or incorrect info from new members. Scoutnut delivered the correct facts.

 

 

I would read what the resident camp you are attending specifically requires. Some require a responsible adult for each participate not to exceed two youth per adult. Others have different policies, so see what the event you are attending requires.

 

I will continue the thought with, it really depends on the Webelos den and the specific scout. Last year the den was fantastic, responsible and mature we had a great time with 3 adults and 10 boys at resident camp. A few issues but that is to be expected, no marshmellow fever and everyone had a great time.

 

This year the boys are horribly in mature and on the outing with the boy scouts were more than just a small handful. So this year I am requiring parents to attend, I am not going to try to manage that or subject my assistants to that.

 

Blue Jacket.....It is vitally important that webelos age boys are the responsibility of an adult who is not the outing leader. And One trained leader is all you need following the rules.

 

Webelos is not a family activity and if you make it such, you are losing the transition intent of the den(This message has been edited by Basementdweller)

[John-in-KC]

I would ask: What does YOUR Council's Webelos Camp Program Guide and Leaders Guide say?

 

If it says 1:1, then that's what it is. If it says something else, then that's what it is, and the Pack makes the decisions on unit leadership for camp. From my experience, the Pack is going to call on most Webelos parents to spend at least one night out as part of the leadership.

 

What concerns me more is "Webelos-ree." This to me is not a resident camp organized by the Council, but rather a large camp-out, a la Camporee for Boy Scouts. In that case, I'd expect to see a comment in the leaders guide such as:

"Adult Supervision: The rules of the Guide to Safe Scouting apply to this event. 1 to 1 parent to child adult supervision is the general rule."

OR:

"Adult Supervision: This is being conducted as a resident camp under the auspices of XXX Council, Boy Scouts of America. The minimum acceptable leadership ratio is 1 leader to every four Webelos, with an absolute minimum of two leaders to comply with two-deep leadership."

 

Time for some reading WestCoast

[drmbear]

I disagree that Scoutnut delivered the correct facts.

 

The Cub Scout Leader Book states: "A Webelos den leader who has completed position-specific training and Outdoor Leader Skills for Webelos Leaders training should conduct these events." And this applies to Webelos Den Overnight Camping. I agree that "should" is not the same as "shall," so if you want to say it is not "required," then so be it. Any resident camp, however, has staff trained as appropriate, the same for what they call a Webelos-ree in the leader book.

 

The "Guide To Safe Scouting" really doesn't go into Webelos camping, just requiring a BALOO trained adult for Pack Overnighters.

 

The place I would definitely refer to though is the Cub Scout Outdoor Program Guidelines (publication 510-631), again these are guidelines, not rules, but again it makes it clear that Webelos Leaders for overnighters should be trained in Outdoor Leader Skills for Webelos Leaders.

 

My question would be, if you are not trained to at least the guidelines as a Webelos leader, what level of risk are you placing yourself in if for some reason something goes wrong? Heck, I know there is absolutely nothing that I really gain in camping skills from either going through BALOO or OWLS as an Eagle Scout that camped at least monthly for years, went on multiple high adventure trecks, has continued to hike and camp since then, and will be a new Webelos leader by next summer. I suffered through BALOO, and I'll go through OWLs this spring. I'll work with the guidelines!!

[WestCoastScouter]

ADDITIONAL COMMENT FROM ORIGIANAL POSTER

 

 

... I am BALOO and IOLS trained...

 

The issue is can I take my den out, as long as I have two deep leadership... Webelos... for weekend campout at campground, without each boy having to bring a parent.

 

Also, my pack does not have good numbers of boys attending Resident Camps... mostly due to cost of boy + parent = expensive for many families. But could "Webelos Billy" come along, so long as we maintain two deep leadership at our site at the resident camp ?

 

Thanks everyone !

[ScoutNut]

>>"The issue is can I take my den out, as long as I have two deep leadership... Webelos... for weekend campout at campground, without each boy having to bring a parent.">"But could "Webelos Billy" come along, so long as we maintain two deep leadership at our site at the resident camp ?"

[Basementdweller]

drnbear did you actually read scout nuts post a quote from his unedited post.

 

"BSA National rules do NOT require adults trained in either BALOO, or Outdoor Leader Skills for Webelos Leaders, in order to be able to take a Webelos den on a den camp out. An individual council might have stricter rules, and require one, or both, but National does not. "

 

 

BTW Eagles are a dime a dozen and the quality of them varies significantly as well. How many adults do you know that claim to be an eagle and you discover latter they are not.

[drmbear]

So are you saying it really isn't worth it for a Scout to work toward achieving Eagle, since they are a "dime a dozen?" Seems to me I've always seen them report that no more than one-out-of-a-hundred actually earns Eagle. Seems to me worth a bit more - and I know it has made a huge difference for me, not only in what I know and do with my life, but also in getting jobs and a lot more. How can you be a leader in Scouting and think so little of what we hope all the boys that begin the program will strive for?

[Basementdweller]

My point is, your pointing out that you are an eagle. So what????? Most of the adult scouters I run into are as well. BTW I am an eagle and lifelong outdoors man as well, so what and who cares.

 

I value the Eagle less now than when I was a youth, I have seen how poorly Some adult scouters administer, push and bend the rules to get their Boys the eagle, some at 13 and 14 years old.

 

We have SM, CC signing off all their scouts requirements, sign off on every one of their merit badges. We have Eagle Projects that are double dipped and used for credit for multiple things. on and on.

 

I have been lied to by eagle scouts

I have been cheated by eagle scouts

Heck one even stuck me for both his scouts summer camp fees.

Eagle scouts are just people after all.

 

I digress, just been around too long and seen too much.(This message has been edited by Basementdweller)

[moosetracker]

drmbear - they are not a dime a dozen.. Our units did not even have many Eagle parents.. But, you will see past Eagles (and even those who enjoyed scouts in their younger years, but did not make Eagle) will be more apt to encourage their sons to try it out.. Therefore within the scouting program, you will find a high percentage of parents who have been in scouts, then in the normal population.

 

Many people though do not feel that the Eagle rank should be the what the boys strive for while in scouts. Rather the focus should be the enjoyment of a great program, and with that the advancement will just happen.

 

I kindof see it as a mix of both a little bit of encouragement or making sure there is ample opportunity in the program for the scouts to work towards rank, but not forced on them in a classroom setting, then letting the boy decide for themselves whether they want to attempt rank or not.

[Basementdweller]

In our troop, 100% of the registered adult leadership are eagles. 12 of us

 

In our Pack all registered male leaders except for 1 are eagles that is 5 of us

 

The Crew 100% of male adult leaders are Eagles. 6 of us.

 

 

Dime a dozen.

 

 

Moosetracks well said, My son is on his own scouting adventure right now, I hope he makes eagle but that is just me being selfish.....More importantly I hope he is having fun and I am positive he is.