Summer Troop-Camp (not council camp)

[Buffalo Skipper]

Our troop recently took our scouts to our local campthe first time our troop had gone there in 8 years. We took 18 scouts (14 of which were first time summer campers) and we placed first in the water carnival and missed top troop by only 4 points. Not bad for a bunch of boys wet behind the ears! The bonding experience (which we had missed at 2009 summer camp) was marvelous, and our young troop is much more like a family than before. We had a great time, but we were greatly disappointed by the program offerings, both the new scout program and the way in which MBs were conducted. Of course the food was mediocre too, but that is another thread.

 

We have another summer camp experience in two weeks, in which we are travelling further afield to the mountains to a high end, reputable camp. Less than 10 of our scouts are going, and considering the cost (75% more that our council camp, not counting gas), this is understandable.

 

We are now considering another alternative for next year. We would like to go to a council summer camp in this area (close and cheap) for the good benefits it brings us. But the following month, we would also like to try making our own one week camp, where the scouts create the program, and (due to the young nature of the troop) the adults deliver it.

 

As much as I really want to do this, I have some mixed feelings about it, but before I go into too many details, I wanted to hear what you your thoughts and first impressions.

[Beavah]

Yah, Buffalo, I know some units that have done that. Loosely speaking, two things are true. First, it's a LOT of work, eh? Your adults will be goin' non- stop all week. Not a lot of sittin' around camp. Da PLs will be working their tails off too. Second, it's a great experience. Your kids will probably find it way better than scout camp, and you'll be able to really develop patrol method and youth leadership in ways yeh can't at camp. But don't forget, it's a LOT of work.

 

Think of it a bit like doin' a troop-run high adventure (which is slightly more common). When yeh don't use Philmont or Seabase or whatnot, the lads get oodles more experience planning, yeh get to tailor your trip to their interests and needs and ability, and yeh can run a 3 week adventure for less money than the shorter High Adventure Base treks. But it's more work, takes more skill and experience and commitment than average. There's a reason da high adventure bases are around.

 

Yeh might try posting this on Scouts-L or checkin' their archives. Da scouters I know who do this sort of thing talk about that list sometimes.

 

Beavah

[Stosh]

I haven't done such a program with scouts, but I have known troops that have done their own summer camp.

 

One troop came up from another state and did a Island Survival week on one of the islands in the Mississippi. They had a ton of problems because they were an adult led program that had too many chiefs and not enough Indians. If I remember correctly, they didn't last the whole week. The kids were having a blast, but the adults weren't and they were calling the shots.

 

The only program I have ever run as such was with co-ed church groups of Boy Scout age. They all turned out pretty good with a lot of nature scavenger hunts, map/compass stuff, and outdoor cooking. The kids loved it.

 

There is a camp from the W.D.Boyce council that has water only access, no staff, and a waiting list a mile long to get into it. Only so many troops per year are allowed to go. All they get is a campsite out in the middle of nowhere. Hey, if that's all they're looking for, I know of a ton of spots right in my neighborhood that fit that requirement.

 

We've done the high adventure alternative to summer camp and that was well received by the older youth. It tended to be a little light on program and heavy on the fun.

 

I would only counsel on the idea of whose definition of camp is going to be operational that week. Adults (self-defined adult led troop) or the boys (their expectations are far different).

 

Summer camp?

 

Okay. Canoeing MB, Fishing MB, Water/Soil Conservation MB, Swimming MB, Cooking MB are the only MB's offered.

 

No more than 1/2 hr. paddle to safety. Dug latrine, water purification, packed in only.

 

Special programs for LNT, Plant/Animal ID, Sailboats made from canoes, Fishing Derby, Iron Chef using the fish caught, local edible plants found, map/compass of the area, making gunpowder, (just tossed that in to see if you're paying attention), etc.

 

Stosh

[shortridge]

Have you considered a hybrid option? That is, going to your council camp for the low cost, facilities and support ... but running your own program while there.

 

Patrol hikes and outpost camping instead of merit badge classes. Campsite cooking instead of the dining hall. Able to go to open swim, open boating, open shooting, open handicrafts, etc., if desired. Able to participate in the campwide activities and competitions. Able to draw on the expertise of the staff if you need a LNT Trainer or first-aid expert, for example.

[Buffalo Skipper]

Thanks for the quick replies. Let me provide a little more background to this.

 

First of all, as I have said many times, we have a young trooptoo young to organize a trek to a high adventure camp. So this is meant to be a low cost alternative with plenty of bang for the buck, as Stosh suggested. I have run this by (hypothetically) a couple of adults and selected scouts, all of whom seem to really like the concept. Before I talk about some of the ideas, let me insist that this is meant as a hypothetical setup, and that much would be done through the PLC and the scouts to actually determine the kinds of program offered.

 

Here are some of our ideas. Each scout chooses an activity group: Nature, Forestry, Scoutcraft, Hiking or Backpacking (or whatever). Each group has a focus list of merit badges and optional badges (there may be some crossover of interests). And each group has a core of adults who work with the scouts in these areas (being so young, we do not have scouts with the skill level to deliver this programin a couple of years, that will change). All scouts could work toward cooking and camping MBs. Obviously, the hiking group (if they organize 6 hikes of 70 miles) would spend much of the time out day hiking, and the backpacking group would be out on a 5 day trek; the Scoutcraft group would do something like Pioneering, Orienteering and/or Wilderness Survival, while the Nature and Forestry groups might concentrate on these types of badges.

 

All the groups could be able to go out on field trips and other excursions. But in the morning and evening, all the groups (except the backpacking trek) would be back in camp for cooking and the overnight. Because the groups would be smaller (probably less than 8 scouts per group), they would still be scout led. Remember, most of the scouts residing in the base camp would probably be 1st or 2nd year campers. The few we have with more experience would likely be off on the backpacking trek. The adults would simply act as coordinators for certain activitiessomewhere between committee members (i.e. troop support), camp staff and even part consultant, like in the venture program.

 

The area we are considering is unique in that it is National Forest land only 2 miles from a section of the AT with a great concentration of hiking trails, and a forestry laboratory, and considerable other amenities. It is a group area (remote but walking distance from showers) located at an improved public campground in the National Forest. An alternate location would be a mile away at a 100% primitive site which straddles an unimproved forest road on the side of a mountain.

 

Where this all gets fuzzy to me is where we do Merit Badges. I have worked hard to see that MBs are NOT a troop activity, but an individual experience. As such, I am uncomfortable with the idea of going out on a troop campout and spending the week doing MB work. I would prefer that scouts have the opportunity to work with troop counselors in advance and that some of the basic stuff (camping and cooking MBs) just happen, with minimal class time. The nature/outdoors badges would perhaps be somewhat more formally classed up, but with added field trips and day hikes, I believe we could keep the experience more subtle than overt. Everyone would have the chance to work on many different badges, though not all would be completed in full on this outing. For example, the first year campers would not be able to meet the 20 day camping requirement, not would anyone be able to sign off on the cooking meals at home, so it would take, as I said, outside work to complete some of these. We are blessed with a plethora of adults which we could utilize in this capacity who would have the skills necessary to serve as MBCs for the badges listed, and I think most would want to come along with us.

 

Again, we need more than just a scout buy-in for this. We would need scout planning and contribution. We want to make this their program. Early estimates of the cost would run under $150, which is half of a high end camp and less than a low-end council camp. This would include camping fees, fuel, food and a 30% buffer for incidental costs. This to me is quite reasonable for a 500 mile drive and 8 nights of camping.

[GKlose]

Buff - I responded on the other thread that my troop did this ('71, '74), and I have no idea how it could be pulled off today. But I think you've got a great start.

 

I'll chime in on another topic. One of our troop dads was a purchasing agent for a hospital. He lived for getting great deals on groceries and sundries. He'd drive into town every morning, and pick up ice (for coolers) and the provisions for dinner and the next day's breakfast and lunch. He'd come back and parcel it all out to coolers, which we would pick up about 4pm. We had one cooler which had our delivery in it, and extra ice for the cooler we kept in our site (these were old styrofoam coolers that we half-buried to help keep them insulated -- nighttime temps would drop to the low 40s too).

 

Since I'm a registered counselor for Cooking MB, I think you can easily work that in. Need patrol-oriented menus? A scout needs to do a 2-day "camping menu" and also a 2-day "backpacking menu" (no refrigeration; lightweight) for the MB, and cook portions of it. You also have 2C scouts that need to write a 1-day menu 1C, etc. Pricing out, weighing, etc. can be done at home.

 

Our camp, in the 70s, had a limited palette of merit badges, as you might expect. Also, back in those days, you didn't have registered merit badge counselors, so sometimes older scouts would be signing off MB requirements (I did the bulk of ESci that way). Our SM would take care of most Scoutcraft MBs.

 

I would think you could look at the overall advancement needs of the troop, and determine the subset to focus on. Tenderfoot to 1C advancement? First Aid MB? Camping MB, etc.

 

At our recent patrol-oriented camp experience, program time was approximately 5.5 hours a day (0930 to 1200, 1230 to 1530); free time for an hour (1530 to 1630), although there were miscellaneous programs all over camp at that time; even program time, run by staff (games, water carnival, etc) for a couple of hours.

 

Build in time for a Scout's Own service, opening and closing campfires, wide games, etc. A troop hike, maybe? Or challenge patrols to come up with a patrol hike? That could eat up entire blocks of time.

 

I think you're on the right track, and it sounds great. Are you doing this in N. Georgia? If I had more vacation time, I'd be tempted to crash your party. :-)

 

Guy

[AvidSM]

A council-run resident summer camp provides structure. The camp is certified and it's staff is trained and all the health and safety issues are covered by them. All the program directors are trained and certified. The downside of having this structure is that the camp chooses the the activities that it offers. The scouts in the troop have to pick a camp that offers the most of what they want to do. This camp may be expensive and far away. This seems to be your situation.

 

While nothing prevents a troop from camping for six night in a row, there is the first challenge of covering all the health and safety issues. A troop would have to consider week-long storage of perishable food items, managing the scouts medications, emergency procedures in case of bad weather, serious injuries or accidents. If you are swimming or boating, all the Safe Swim Defense and Safety Afloat guidelines must be covered, by the book. Any deviation from the Guide to Safe Scouting would mean risking your Troop's liability coverage.

 

The second challenge would be getting enough youth or adults to staff the program for a week. These people would have to be good teachers and know the subject well. They would have to come up with a plan of activities and the materials needed. If offering a Merit Badge, they would have to either be the Counselor for that badge or get permission from one in order to help the boys complete some or all of the requirements.

 

I'm not saying it can't be done. And, I'm sure you have already considered much of this. But, I belive this would be too much of a challege for an young troop with too many unexperienced boys and adults.

 

 

[Beavah]

Yah, say what yeh want about Kudu, he does accumulate some interestin' stuff on his site.

 

Here are a few things on this topic. Wise and fun advice from a bunch of different scouters across da country. I don't endorse everything they say, mind, but yeh have to admit it's quite a treasure trove if you're thinkin' about this sort of thing.

 

http://www.inquiry.net/outdoor/summer/camp/troop/more.htm

Set of emails with scouters offering brief responses detailing their independent camps in a response to a question like Buffalo's.

 

http://www.inquiry.net/outdoor/summer/camp/troop/trooprun.htm

One troop's detailed description of its annual in-troop summer camp program.

 

http://www.inquiry.net/outdoor/summer/camp/troop/01.htm

A troop doing their own summer camp as a mini high-adventure type trip.

 

http://www.inquiry.net/outdoor/summer/camp/troop/02.htm

A troop that runs its own camp in addition to going to BSA camp each summer.

 

http://www.inquiry.net/outdoor/summer/camp/troop/03.htm

Another troop run camp using a Corps of Engineers camp facility.

 

http://www.inquiry.net/outdoor/summer/camp/troop/index.htm

A long description and reflection from a troop where da PLC designed their own summer camp, based on their goals.

 

It's pretty good stuff, eh?

 

Shortridge, do yeh have any good resources or examples of da "hybrid" thing yeh talked about (perhaps it could even be a different thread). I'm just curious. Of course, that's what BSA camps historically were supposed to be, eh? Sorta what a lot of international scout camps still are, if yeh get a chance to visit. More like resource providers to assist da troop in its own program, rather than actually running everything themselves as an offered program. But yeh don't see that done too much anymore.

 

Beavah

(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[Beavah]

Missed your post when I was composin' mine, Buff.

 

That's a reasonable start, eh?

 

One question for yeh. Why not use your patrols, rather than having da boys form their own new patrols by interest during the week? Seems like you're breaking Patrol Method when it isn't necessary. Let each patrol decide on its activities.

 

Then maybe in the evening, yeh can offer individual merit badges to whomever wants. Seems like that would be natural for Astronomy MB. Or maybe a few guys in each patrol can meet with a counselor at the start of the week and then work on the badge on their own during the week while they're out with their patrol. Seems like a natural thing for somethin' like Cooking MB anyways.

 

Just some thoughts.

 

Beavah

 

 

 

[Eagledad]

Well after reading your post a couple of times, I think it is very do-able. I have a bit of experience in this stuff and your view of it it sounds pretty good. Im not sure of your motivation however. Are you trying to get a bit more of the skills and badges part of the program you missed at camp?

 

Motivation is important because this is going to requires a few months of dedicated planning by EVERYONE. To make it more difficult for you, you wont have the older scouts to help. We ran our own Webelos Summer camp, so I have a bit of a feel for not having older scouts around. It won't be a big deal once everyone gets into a routine.

 

Your biggest logistic challenge will be food. We rented a large U-Haul trailer to store our many ice chest of food, and we still made daily trips to a nearby town for fresh meats, vegetables and ICE. You will need a Quartermaster and adult assistant just for the food alone.

 

I will say this, you are looking at the short term benefits of this activity, but my experience is our program maturity accelerated four times faster than a normal troop program. You are condensing and forcing a coouple years of program into a few months. Both the adults and scouts will grow in this one activity. It is rewarding and very bonding for the whole group, but you will earn it with hard work and stress. It will be a long week, so plan plenty of fun time for everyone to decompress. Beating the adults in Whiffleball followed with watermelon seems very popular for some reason.

 

Once you do this, you and your adults will not be able to keep up with the scouts because they will have learned that if you can dream it, it can happen. They will dream up a lot things. That is when you will really love this scouting stuff.

 

Barry

 

[Buffalo Skipper]

Beavah,

I did have that thought, and thanks for noticing and bringing it up. To me, advancement (including MBs) is an individual activity, not one to be pursued on a unit level (either troop or patrol). If each patrol were to choose one "activity group" and follow through with it, that might really be cool. I just don' think that is a very practical approach. As an example, in our efforts to develop patrol centric activites, each of our three PLs (on their own without any prompting or suggesting on my part) have wanted to do a MB as a patrol. Though I am certainly for this, it has not happened because the patrol members cannot agree on one to all take.

 

On the other hand, does anyone think that having them choose activites/MBs by patrol is a good idea? (and I am not suggesting it is not...)

 

For the sake of our discussion, I did not mention that this hypothetical location would include no aquatic activities, other than possibly a guided rafting trip. Our potential "base camp" has a river running behind it, but it is near the source and is shallow enough to wade all the way across without getting one's knees wet. Fishing, however, is a real option. Waterfront activities open up a whole nother can of worms which, though we may be able to handle (supervision/experience wise) is simply not in the facilities where we are currently considering.

[packsaddle]

" When yeh don't use Philmont or Seabase or whatnot, the lads get oodles more experience planning, yeh get to tailor your trip to their interests and needs and ability, and yeh can run a 3 week adventure for less money than the shorter High Adventure Base treks. But it's more work, takes more skill and experience and commitment than average."

 

I completely agree and these are several of the reasons I prefer the non-BSA alternatives. The boys have a much better time as well and ALL of the boys in the troop can go, including the young ones less than 14 years old. If the young guys have a problem, the older ones help them learn solutions...or just help. The sense of camaraderie is much greater.

 

Edited to add: It isn't a necessary part of the experience to work on merit badges. I support the idea of just having a great time exploring or (horrors!) working on scoutcraft and pioneering skills. These are the kinds of things that some of us complain about later (not being able to tie xxxx knot at BOR). Let these wilderness companions experience real companionship. Let the MB process be truly individual as it should be - at some other time.(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

[Buffalo Skipper]

Barry asked about my motivation, as did my closest scouting friend and mentor (who happens to work down the hall from me), so I feel it is important to answer. There are several reasons I am supporting this, some of which are more important and others are really quite trivial.

 

For me, the idea of doing a troop doing its own adventure camp program (somewhere in the mountains) entered my mind when my family first camped at this location 3 summers ago, and I saw the group area. It was just so immediately obvious how perfect a location this was to pull this off. I kept the idea to myself, but I was already thinking of ways in which this could be introduced to the troop. At the time, I was on the committee, and only just beginning to be active with outings, but I knew I would be SM in a year or two. The next summer, I went with the troop to Skymont, on the Cumberland Plateau. Not exactly the mountains, but close enough. Our troop has traditionally gone to the Appalachians for summer camp for a decade, mainly for some of the leaders to avoid the oft oppressive heat of the Gulf Coast. Last year we went to Woodruff.

 

Since it took all day to get up to this area from home, I thought we should arrange to leave a few days early with the troop and do some activities in the mountains. We were already going to be there, why not take advantage of it. That is where this year comes in. The PLC decided in October to go to our local camp (much to the disgust of our older leaders) AND also to a camp in the mountains (Daniel Boone). Last year we did a summertime 60 mile canoe trip, and I knew the PLC would not be organizing something like that this year, so I suggested up an extra day early to camp and actually do something. We are staying in the Smoky Mountain NP, and the participating scouts divided themselves into 2 different ability groups and with our guidance (they had never done this before) put together a day and a half of short treks before summer camp, which is only an hour away from where we will be in the Smokies. It was all met with considerable resistance, but as soon as we actually got the scouts involved with the planning, everyones attitude changed and ALL (including our adults) are fired up about the trip.

 

Up until this point, I had not mentioned to anyone about my hair brained idea of doing our own camp. But my closest ASM, an extremely dynamic scout leader, suggested that he would like to see us do something like our own camp, and that is when he and I started discussing it (last week). Only over the weekend did I start organizing these ideas into actual program material.

 

But again, I have evaded the question of what is my motivation. It is not a solution to issues I have with council camp programs (though there are things about council camps I do not like). It would be lower cost than a high end camp. It would provide an opportunity for other adults (and perhaps the appropriate dad/mom/uncle) to involve themselves in program. It would get the patrol mostly working on cooking, rather than dining hall style service. It would reinforce scouts skills of camping, which is a plus. Based upon my family experiences it would simply be fun for the scouts! Since we dont have enough older scouts to do a high adventure trek (Philmont, Northern Tier, etc), it would be a less expensive way to have a more adventurous experience for all our scouts. None of these reasons alone are sufficient motivation to do a camp like this, but when you put everything together, it just makes sense.

 

Also the bonus (which I would certainly hope for) is the bonding and camaraderie which might result from this type of experience. BP said that advancement is like a suntan, it is something which naturally occurs when being in the out of doors. I think the analogy would apply to the growth experience of this type of adventure as well: the camaraderie is not the goal, but it will happen naturally in this environment.

 

Edited: packsaddle, I agree. To me, Camping, Cooking, Hiking, Backpacking and the like are MBs that happen naturally. I earned most as a scout while on outings in the mountains, not at summer campsometimes even away from my troop. These need to be experienced to be earned. Yes, I actively sought to complete the requirements for these badges, but I did take advantage of the opportunities presented to me. Rather than force the badges on these lads, I would like to see them have the opportunity to pursue them and complete the requirements on their own.

(This message has been edited by Buffalo Skipper)

 

2nd edit: I appreciate the concern regarding food. I too, have had more than one thought about this. Likewise, I am confident that we would have a few extra adults who could go into town on 1 or 2 occasions to purchase supplies. Being that this by an improved campground (no electricity, and generators allowed only on the loops away from the group area), there is a small camp store where we could purchase ice. The nearest town (Franklin NC, is about 20 miles away and is plenty large enough to serve any of our needs.

 

When I was there 3 years ago, I became friends there with the most gifted woodcarver I have ever met, who interestingly, was also a master storyteller. I have kept in touch with him and I bet he might come out to work with the scouts for a day (he carved the Buffalo on my walking stick).(This message has been edited by Buffalo Skipper)

[Stosh]

If one has a lot of young boys, ANYTHING not related to an organized camp would be high adventure. If they camp on a "remote" island (any sandbar along the river where you can't see any buildings) will do. It could be a 5 minute paddle from the landing, but these kids don't care.

 

Camping in the national forest 100' from the path/fire break is high adventure.

 

Having to carry your gear a couple of miles before setting up is high adventure.

 

Getting there by bike is high adventure.

 

For a lot of these kids if they are out of cell phone range, it's out beyond civilization.

 

Rigging up a sail and sailing the canoe across the lake and back is high adventure.

 

Canoeing down any flowing river that turns is high adventure.

 

The whole world is new to the new scouts, it doesn't take a whole lot to make any trip high adventure.

 

Older boys are more challenging:

 

Why not get the 1911 handbook and have the boys make tents and bed rolls and go out for the weekend using homemade equipment.

 

The only thing that limits anyone is the extent of their imagination.

 

I may have cooked hundreds of meals in my mess kit over the years, but the first time a new scout burns his first pancake in his mess kit, it's high adventure!

 

Stosh

[packsaddle]

Buffalo Skipper, your unit is going to a great place. When I was a scout our troop did our summer campouts in the GSMNP. We had the base camp and we'd radiate out to hike to the top of Mt LeConte, or to the top of the Chimneys, or out to the Jump Off or Charlie's Bunyan, so many other possibilities. So many great memories. Your guys are going to have a great time.