Frustrated/Upset with Council RE: Food @ Camp

[Liz]

It would have to be a camp in a different council, but oh well. The reality is that he has many many opportunities to go to various camps this year -- all of which will be more accommodating. Other than Boy Scout Camp, the summer basically looks like:

 

2 weeks in Mexico

1 week at a church conference (whole family activity -- and I'll be cooking)

1 week of "High Adventure" camp through our church

1 week of camp at the beach put on through our regional church organization

5 days or so on a 50-mile backpack trip with the troop

 

Not to mention that he needs to find some time to go visit his dad this summer...

 

It's not like he'll be sitting around on his butt. I think he'll be happy to have the money back in his savings account if that's what he chooses. I actually was somewhat against him going to Boy Scout camp this year (although I kept my mouth shut). My older son decided not to go because it was just too much... also he didn't have enough money saved up for both Mexico and Boy Scout camp (I usually pay for their church camps but they pay for all their Scout activities plus Mexico).

 

Do you think my reply to them is reasonable? I've added a little to it. I'm trying to be firm in my stand but not sound like a helicopter parent or be unreasonable. I did add a line about all my years of FOS support being a waste and not a mistake I'll be making again... although that may be over the top. But it's true. I don't intend to continue supporting FOS unless I see some real changes. I still haven't sent my reply. I need to go shopping or something and come back to it with a clear head later.

[Hal_Crawford]

Looking forward to next year your troop may want to look at other camps in your council. Camp Baldwin is not a dining hall camp--ingredients and menus are provided and scouts cook over campfires. The call it Jamboree style but it is basically patrol cooking. While the ingredients may still be problematic it should be a lot easier to adapt to an individual scout's needs when scouts do the cooking.

 

Our troop goes to a camp that has the same setup. We have adapted to kids with pretty severe allergies. Since the food is not prepared it should be easier to work around the problematic ingredients. It also puts management of the diet in the scouts' hands rather than the

adults'. IMHO patrol cooking is a better camp experience for all the scouts anyway.

 

Good luck,

Hal

[shortridge]

FWIW - this is from the Camp Pioneer leaders' guide on your council's website.

 

"Gas-fueled lanterns and stoves (canister type fuels are recommended over liquid) may be used for outdoor lighting and cooking. The use of gas-fueled lanterns and stoves in any tent or Adirondack is strictly prohibited. All fuel containers not in use must be stored in the camp gas shack. A responsible adult, who is knowledgeable in safety precautions, must do lighting and refueling; fuel is never handled by youth. The use of liquid fuels as a fire-starter is strictly prohibited."

 

So whoever told you no propane was wrong. Cook, and be merry!

[FScouter]

She didn't say she was told propane was not allowed. She said "I'm fairly certain they won't allow a camp stove", but did not ask. She said day of camp involves patrol cooking in the campsite, so the answer seems an obvious "yes".

 

The camp offered refrigerator space, a toaster, and a microwave oven. Great! Cooking in the campsite is always an option too. Great! The camp said she can't cook in their kitchen other than the toaster and microwave, and they can't cook special for those two boys. Sounds perfectly reasonable. They won't allow an RV in a campsite. That too sounds reasonable. Perhaps if there had been some follow up communication on the part of the troop back in May, or even early June, maybe something else could have been worked out. Perhaps the food people could have ordered some dairy/gluten free food, had they known. But late followup 48 hours before camp starts there's no time to do that.

 

The best solution at this point is to simply bring the boys' normal everyday special food from home and cook it in the campsite. Bring an ice chest or use the camp refrigerator. Seems fairly simple. Just do it.

 

What is the purpose of writing a rebuttal letter?? The camp lost her letter, therefore they should be obligated to accomodate her request to park an RV in the campsite? The troop had an obligation too, which was to get the woman a solution. The troop failed to do that.

[Liz]

She didn't say she was told propane was not allowed. She said "I'm fairly certain they won't allow a camp stove", but did not ask. She said day of camp involves patrol cooking in the campsite, so the answer seems an obvious "yes".

 

** I have been told that in the past. Either the person who told me that was wrong, or the policy has changed, or the policy varies from one camp to the next within the Council. The day the camp cooks in the campsite is all open campfire cooking, so it has nothing to do with fuel. But I will send the camp stove with Zach if he chooses to go under these circumstances.

 

The camp offered refrigerator space, a toaster, and a microwave oven. Great! Cooking in the campsite is always an option too. Great! The camp said she can't cook in their kitchen other than the toaster and microwave, and they can't cook special for those two boys. Sounds perfectly reasonable. They won't allow an RV in a campsite. That too sounds reasonable. Perhaps if there had been some follow up communication on the part of the troop back in May, or even early June, maybe something else could have been worked out. Perhaps the food people could have ordered some dairy/gluten free food, had they known. But late followup 48 hours before camp starts there's no time to do that.

 

** They seem to have revoked their permission to use the refrigerator and microwave. The toaster is not an option anyway because it will inevitably contain gluten so it's a moot point. I agree that 48 hours is late to be following up, but I did not know until this week that our ASM had not followed up like he promised he would. He told me to assume everything would be OK because he was sure it would be, unless he told me otherwise. I realize that part isn't the Council's fault, but it is what it is.

 

The best solution at this point is to simply bring the boys' normal everyday special food from home and cook it in the campsite. Bring an ice chest or use the camp refrigerator. Seems fairly simple. Just do it.

 

** It seems simple to you, but the kids do not HAVE "normal everyday special food from home." We eat real food at home, not prepared food because prepared food almost always has gluten and/or dairy in it. The boys will not have access to a sink, a stable work surface, a full compliment of pots and pans, an oven, a complete set of kitchen knives, a full sized refrigerator, or any of the other things we have at home. I don't expect anybody who hasn't done this before to understand, but camp food typically consists of a very simplified fare and relies heavily on pre-packaged items. Granted, the typical American diet isn't much different from that, but when you have special dietary needs you just don't eat a typical American diet.

 

What is the purpose of writing a rebuttal letter?? The camp lost her letter, therefore they should be obligated to accomodate her request to park an RV in the campsite? The troop had an obligation too, which was to get the woman a solution. The troop failed to do that.

 

** Nobody EVER suggested parking the RV in the campsite. According to our ASM who has been there, there's room to park an RV near the kitchen. No doubt this is where they're parking the other RV for the boy whose paperwork they did not mis-file and forget to deal with. And I totally understand that the other kid may have a more critical need for the camper than ours do, and I have zero issue with working out some alternative arrangement even if it weren't for the other kid who got prioritized over ours... the problem is that they refuse to talk to me and refuse to work with me to come up with another solution. They won't even TRY. And they have decided not to even make the basic accommodation that the Leader's Guide says they'll make because they essentially claim that we didn't file the paperwork until this week. Which is a lie.

 

I am not exactly trying to write a rebuttal letter, just a response. The fact that the lawyer who wrote the letter to me had several factual errors needs to be addressed. But my purpose is to let him know that, no, telling the kids they can't come to camp (which is what the letter states) is not going to be an option. The other boy in the troop who requested accommodation is planning to go anyway. Maybe he'll bring extra food from home and maybe he won't, but that's not my problem because I am not going. My son hasn't had a chance to make a decision yet because he is in Mexico until Tomorrow. Frankly, I hope he decides to take the refund.

 

As for Camp Baldwin, I was not aware they did all camp cooking. The only summer camps I've been to have been Meriwether and Adventure Cove (cubs). Our troop actually rotates and since they went to Meriwether last year, Baldwin will be on the list for next year. That should be much easier to deal with if the boys do their own cooking there. But I am going to suggest that they consider mixing things up a bit by trying a camp in a neighboring council. I'll research the camps and make a suggestion, but I welcome any input from people who might know of some camps in Southern Oregon or in Washington.

 

But I feel like I am DONE being an adult leader in any regular Boy Scout troop, I am re-thinking my decision to be a Venturing Advisor, and I am definitely not planning on continuing my FOS support. It's not just this issue, either, it's just the last straw. Our Council is so messed up in so many ways I don't even know where to start.

 

[SMT224]

SNAFU - situation normal, all **** ed up

 

Welcome to the real world.

 

Yes, you are seeing the messed up part of your Council where humans and policy have let important things slip through the cracks. But that is reality everywhere - in our government, our medical system, our law enforcement system, and unfortunately in our Scouting administration as well. Where ever humans get involved you'll find absolutely wonderful things happening, and the stupidest thing possible. Every single summer camp I've been to has some things that could be a whole lot better.

 

But things only get better by people recognizing the problem and then working to set things right. Yes, you could quite now. Walk away. But then then next person confronting the issue would have roughly experience as you have had. Whereas, if you stick to it, the knowledge you have acquired in this bad experience will ensure that you walk in to the next summer camp knowing what questions need to be asked and what situations need to be in place to avoid that chaos your Troop is now experiencing.

 

You are clearly a conscientious and mindful person. Leaving now, because you can see that some things really are **** ed up, will not do anything to make summer camp better for the next Troop with kids that have special dietary needs. Yes, it will be hard to confront the camp on their food policy and attitudes, but someone's got to do it... why not you?

 

And then, like others have said, find another camp that clearly meets your needs. You will be amazed and delighted to find that some camps are really very responsive to special dietary needs and provide significant support to ensure the Scouts have a great summer camp experience.

 

Hang in there Liz - it's worth it!

[Luvtahike]

I am leaving for camp tomorrow. I just saw this late last night. I also have food "issues". I am intolerant of gluten, dairy, lactose, oatmeal(even gf), turkey, beans and more.

 

The camp I am attending doesn't help a lot with food issues. They just don't have the facilities to do this. I understand this. I took the time to drive up 1.5 hours each way to meet with the chef so that we each had a thorough understanding of where we stood. The only camp item that I may use is the microwave - not during busy times - and I must give them the food to be warmed. That is it at this point. So I am bringing 2 coolers, my backpacking stove and a coleman stove. There is a question as to what kind of stove can be used at camp here too. I have water bottles freezing and have a block of ice ready to go. It is supposed to be in the 90's all week here.

 

I cannot have ANY gluten or dairy. In some cases, I can't even use a mixing bowl that has had gluten in it. I've lost 25 pounds this winter due to this food stuff. So, yeah, not celiac, but worse in some ways. My friend who has celiac just shakes his head when we camp together. He can have so much more than me!

 

Here is a quick list of what I am bringing:

 

Jillians French rolls - frozen food aisle of most grocery stores. They can be microwaved

homemade gf graham crackers

GF/DF chocolate bars

hardboiled eggs

GF bread - sliced and frozen

peanut butter - only to be eaten when I am not near scouts and can wash immediately after eating

jelly

rice cakes

rice chex

barbara's puffins - honey rice

Lay's potato chips - Sam's club has the little bags. Not healthy but I love them!

canned chicken

small jar of mayo in plastic bag so it stays cold in the bottom of cooler

chocolate chip cookies - betty crocker - I'm making these today and freezing them

applesauce

fruit roll ups

sunrise spuds

homemade gf muffins - frozen - I will pull them out the night before and leave on top of the cooler

store bought gf cookies - glutino makes great ones!

Jones sausage products - can be microwaved or camp stove

Progresso chicken and rice soup - microwave or camp stove

 

I'm bringing Larabars and Kind bars but I won't take them out of the car if there is a nut allergy in camp. (they are awesome nut bars). These are available at Walmart, most grocery stores, etc. Expensive at over $1 each but awesome!

 

I can have the eggs and sausage at camp. Also most of the protein at dinner. There is fresh fruit at camp all the time along with coffee! (but they won't let me have my almond milk. I have to use soy milk - yuck)

 

There are other things that I will add later. I just can't think of them right now. If your son does decide to go to camp, maybe this list will help you.

 

This is not easy but if I don't do it, then I can't go to camp. That makes it easy to do. I want to go to camp, the boys want me to go to camp so I go to camp. I've been with the troop for over 3 years. I've been an ASM since October when my Web's bridged. 5 out of the 6 new scouts are going to camp.

 

My food choices may not be the healthiest and most balanced but it works for me. I have "safe" food. The food at camp isn't the most nutritious either.

 

My older son and I did our Ordeals in May. I learned a lot about what to bring and not bring on that trip. The OA guys did nothing for me food wise. I don't think they knew what to do. It was very difficult but I had prepared for that. So, I have a new job in OA - help coordinate food for our next event. There was a problem and I am going to try to help fix it. I guess this is my new involvement in scouting.

 

My best to you and your son. I am sure you will work this out somehow. I'll look later today to see if you have responded and if I can help in any way!

[Liz]

Luvtahike --

 

Well, it's good to know we're not alone. My Celiac is bad enough that I can't use pans or mixing bowls or things that have had gluten in them, either unless they've both been thoroughly scrubbed and are made of a non-porous material (glass, stainless, etc.). So for example even if our troop did have dutch ovens, I wouldn't be able to eat anything cooked in them. My son is less sensitive than I am and can manage if everything's been washed. But it's my only real big food issue (other ones like my allergy to cucumbers and melons simply don't come up as often). I find that even though I have to be more careful about contamination than my son, the fact that he can't do dairy either makes his diet at least twice as hard to manage as mine in a lot of ways. I can see how your diet would be even more challenging.

 

Part of my personal frustration is that this will be my last opportunity to go to summer camp with my boys. They are 15 & 16 years old now, and I have a new baby due next month. By the time baby's old enough to leave home with Daddy for an entire week, my kids will have aged out... well, maybe Zach will have a year left depending on the timing of camp (his birthday is next week; this year he'll be 14 at camp but most years he'd have his birthday before or during camp). Unless we can find a camp that allows Venturing crews and they're still doing that during their college years... this is it for me. And even this late in time, if they would have CALLED me back in a timely manner or at least give me a number I can reach someone at, instead of playing the "call the main office and leave a voicemail" game only to have them reply in a one-way-email or voicemail... I still could have, I'm sure, worked something out like what you've done. I am happy to take on the entire burden without asking them to DO anything -- which was my reasoning behind asking for the RV exception (which, it turns out, they're willing to do for another camper... and yes, I understand they can only do it for one person at a time and the other one probably did come first so I'm really fine with dropping the RV request and coming up with another plan if they'd just give me a chance...)

 

By the time the baby's old enough to join Cubs, we'll be living in a different Council area, so I might give it another shot if it's a boy... we'll see. Maybe I'll look into the Campfire program instead; that's what I did when I was a girl.

 

Your food list is pretty helpful. I've never seen the rolls you mention, but most of the other stuff should be available around here and I can buy him a loaf or two of Udi's bread (the only bread on the market that's good... or even edible, IMO). My son does eat Lara bars. Most of them are based on dates, though, which I'm allergic to, so they don't work so well for me -- ditto with at least 75% of the gluten-free bars available on the market; they either have dates or walnuts or pecans in them, none of which I can eat. I have made good use of the Oskri Organics Fiber Bars; they're absolutely delicious and you can get them on Amazon. Not real sweet like most of the other bars, made mostly from Quinoa, and they contain almonds and cranberries. If my son does choose to go, I can go to Trader Joe's and stock up on snacks to supplement some basic meals, and he can take our coleman stove and his own backpacking stove and the camp can just deal with it. I just wish Zach were home so he could shop and pick out his own stuff. He's actually really good at reading labels and making sensible choices. Believe me, I wouldn't be doing this for him if he were HOME.

 

But again, because of the late stage of pregnancy I'm in, eating a week's worth of compromised nutrition isn't worth the risk; I'm already losing weight and I can't risk putting myself into toxemia just because I really want to go to camp. Otherwise, I'd actually be fine eating boiled eggs and oranges and nuts and fiber bars all week. In fact, over the last few years of knowing I'm Celiac (I've lost count whether it's been 3 or 4 years now), I've pretty much gotten used to it.

 

Oh well. Next year I can take the baby with me and go camp in a National Forest with the venturing crew, and maybe that will be better than Summer Camp anyway. And if I want to take my RV instead of sleeping in a tent... I can! LOL. And my husband can come, too (he's signed up to be an Advisor, also; he was super active in Cub Scouts but he got too frustrated with politics and stupidity to continue volunteering in Boy Scouts years ago and gave up -- His ASM shirt is till hanging in his closet having been worn maybe 3 times).

 

 

As for the Soy milk -- have you ever tried Hemp Milk? Hemp is not a common allergen, and the texture of hemp milk is super close to cow's milk. It works extremely well in cooking. Zach puts Almond Breeze (vanilla) on his cereal, but we use unflavored hemp milk in any recipe that would normally be heavy on the milk like gravies and sauces and chowders.

 

[Liz]

YAY! ZACH CALLED!!

 

They're safely across the border.

 

Zach has chosen to go ahead and accept the refund and just come home. I didn't try to influence him either way... told him I'd be happy to put together a food box and a cooler for him, but he said not to bother. I think he's probably had enough of food compromises in the last two weeks and his body probably needs some real cooked food.

 

And next year, whether they're at Baldwin or some other camp, the whole thing should be much easier. If they're cooking in their own campsite, it doesn't matter WHAT the camp brings them to cook -- they can bring their own food and just cook it. No problem.

 

I'm still sad about not being able to go myself, but oh well. What can ya do?

 

I'll have to decide later whether I'm willing to "take on" the challenge of trying to get through their thick skulls that they need to do a better job of handling food issues at camp... sounds like around the country some camps do pretty well and others do pretty much the same as ours.

 

Anybody here know anything about the Oregon Trail Council, their camps, or how easy or hard they are to work with in general?

[jhankins]

I have a friend working at Camp Baker in Oregon Trail Council (the boy scout camp). I will send him a note and get back to you.

[John-in-KC]

Two comments:

 

1) Your IH and COR need to send a business letter to the Scout Executive. They need to state that the Council is not meeting its obligations of providing program per the Charter Agreement in not meeting special dietary needs. They need to further state they are asserting their franchise owndership of the Troop and instructing the CC, the SM, and the PLC that Camp XYZ will never again be used by Troop 987.

 

Those kinds of letters tend to get immediate attention by the SE, once the season is done. The Chartered Partner is taking revenue away from the Scout Camp.

 

Most Councils have their camp leaders guides online. If I were your Troops SM, I'd ask the SPL to have some older Scouts start doing research and reading. (Of course, I'd also being doing this independently). As so many have stated, most camps move Heaven and Earth to accommodate most special dietary needs.

 

CAUTION: Your unit may get flak from the SE, DE, and Commissioner Service over leaving the Council camp. Mr CC and Mr SM need to simply refer those who would give flak to the IH and COR.

[Liz]

My unit will not be willing to make waves. And I do not believe our CO will be willing to make waves on our behalf either, even if we were to ask them to.

 

I just talked to the other kid's mother, and she is pretty upset with me for even talking to them. I was the one who talked her into filling out a special needs request form in the first place, her son is willing to just starve all week, and she doesn't believe in, well, doing anything. And she's our Chairperson.

 

Even though I have made it abundantly clear to them on every occasion that I am not speaking on behalf of their family, that her son has the least-difficult dietary needs of all of us, that he intends to come to camp whether they can accommodate his diet or not, and that I was ONLY asking for the option of a refund if MY son chose not to come to camp under these circumstances, the letter they wrote back still basically says they will be issuing refunds to both our sons and she is now afraid they won't let her son go to camp. And I can tell she's upset with me for it, although she didn't quite come out and say so because she never comes out and says anything.

 

In order for me to do anything about this, I think I'd need the backbone of a stronger unit and a stronger CO. And those are things I just don't have.

[jhankins]

There are a few things at work here:

 

1) from a business standpoint, a camp should cater to their customers and do their very best to work with dietary needs. You may have to bring a few things (for instance I bring almond milk with me for breakfasts), but not being able to eat 3 squares a day is ridiculous, not when it's paid for.

 

2) A Scout is loyal, helpful, and friendly and kind. The harsh approach of your council does anything but follow the scout law.

 

[John-in-KC]

In order for me to do anything about this, I think I'd need the backbone of a stronger unit and a stronger CO. And those are things I just don't have.

 

That's a significant signal to me; it's time to thank your Troop for its services to you and your family, and find a new Troop. Being able to say the courage of our convictions matters, especially when it's the SM and CC, who are supposed to be examples to the youth members.

[Liz]

John, I fully agree with you, unfortunately the kids are pretty attached to their friends within the troop.

 

My older son actually probably doesn't give a care, since all his closest friends aged out last year (he's heading up a new Venture crew and looking for a CO now), except that he's ASPL and feels obligated to step up to SPL position this coming year.

 

My younger son I don't think would consider switching unless all his friends switched, too. And his friends' parents are, for the most part, the adults that are the troop leadership that is such a problem.

 

Both kids are aware that, frankly, their Troop sucks. They talk about it with each other all the time. But they don't want to switch, they'd rather just suck it up and stay with their friends. And they're of an age where I feel they should be allowed that choice.

 

Now, I will discuss this whole issue with my older son, who has been planning to ask the same CO of the troop to charter the crew (except they can't seem to get an appointment with the person they would ask; that's how much the CO really cares about the Scouts it attaches its name to), and maybe I can convince him to look elsewhere. My husband and I are essentially the primary adult leaders signed up to be the Crew Advisors, and we both (as you might have gathered already) are not the types to roll over and play dead.

 

Which spawns a spin-off thread... I'm going to spin off on a new topic over in the Venturing area. PLEASE come take a look...? I could really use some input on helping my son's CO-less crew get to official status.