Summer Camp Woes

[penst8]

Hopefully I'll get as many useful suggestions on this topic as I did on the Traveling to Camp thread I posted earlier.

 

Please bear with me this maybe long......

We were under the gun to make a camp decision since nothing was done over the summer. When the topic of summer camp came up at a recent committee meeting I suggested that we try to find a camp that offered a good merit badge program for the younger scouts and some high adventure for the older scouts. The committee agreed and I researched the camps and found several. We presented seven camp options to the boys and they selected Blue Ridge which is about 5 1/2 hours from home.

 

After the meeting we asked the boys to review all of the information about the camp and select one of the high adventure programs and get back to us on Sunday evening so we could contact the camp to reserve our spot. They could also choose to do merit badges, with the younger scouts, if that's what interested them.

 

On Sunday evening after a less than stellar response from the boys I decided to make follow up phone calls to see what was up. The second call I made was to one of our boys whose father happens to be a district commissioner(he has silver shoulder loops). The father proceeded to ream me out about the lack of planning, lack of parental involvement, etc. etc. when "we" meaning the leaders selected this camp. This was a little disturbing considering the amount of thought that I had actually put into this in a short period of time. I'm a detail guy and I usually have all my ducks in a row and while there was still work to be done I was confident that our decision was sound. Some people might consider me anal about my attention to detail but I tend to plan my work and work my plan and it saves a lot of grief and heartache. Traveling to this summer camp shouldn't have been any different. Handle the details so everyone can have a great time at camp.

 

One of the irate parents concerns was that we didn't consider the crossover scouts. When the Troop came to talk to my Web II den last year they told us how much it cost, when it was and what they would be doing. They never asked for our input nor did did I expect them to. The camp the Troop went to last summer was 3 hours away. Would the extra 2 hours of travel time be that big of a concern that we should have consulted with the Webelos II parents????

 

The irate parent also claimed that we'd need a plan for homesick boys. That was my son last year. I didn't attend camp last summer because I wanted him to grow a little. As a leader from Tigers thru today I've been on every trip with him. I wanted to see how he'd react without dad there to lean on. He got homesick and the leaders worked with him to tough it out and work through it. They didn't allow him to call home because they felt it might make it worse. They did call me several times to report on him and in the end he did great. So my question is why should our plan for homesick boys be much different than it was in years past? Is it harder for the boys to tough it out in VA versus PA? Yeah it would be a long drive if someone had to go home but isn't that the very last resort????

 

Finally and this is what I need the most help with. The parent/commissioner and the SM spoke and the SM is now wanting to pull Blue Ridge off the table and attend a local camp. While the boys didn't research these camps they were presented with 7 options and chose (almost unanimously) to attend Blue Ridge in VA.

 

If we bow to this commissioner who doesn't attend our meetings or many of the committee meetings what message does that send to the boys? If its a boy lead troop (not in the truest sense of the BSA) and the boys make a decision and we blow it off because of one parent, then I think we're heading down a dangerous path. Incidentally, one of the other ASM's and I continued to make phone calls to the boys and so far, only the commissioner isn't in favor of leaving our backyard to go to what looks like a great camp.

 

I'm a firm believer that you have to offer a top notch program to keep the boys interested. I had a blast with the boys I lead through Cub Scouts and we did a ton of really cool things. Shouldn't the older boys be offered an opportunity to experience something they've never done and may not do again. Some of our boys may not go to camp because they have all the badges they need for Eagle. If all we offer the older boys is a Merit Badge camp then I don't think we're doing our jobs as leaders. Shouldn't camp be about more than just earning merit badges.

 

Our Troop has some work to do to get to be more boy lead and I think the SM knows that and is taking steps to improve the program but until the boys are truly making the decisions someone needs to make sure that we're offering more than summer camp for merit badges and monthly camping trips.

 

Am I off base here? What are your thoughts about this summer camp debacle? I'm concerned about the message to the boys and that we'll be cheating them out of a great opportunity to participate in some really cool activities if we buckle under and give in.

 

Thanks- sorry about the length.

 

 

[Eagle92]

Planning for summercamp now, ALRIGHT! Wish most of the units I've visited thought this far ahead.

 

Ok a few clarification questions.

 

1) Did the SM have any input into the 7 options?

 

2)If the SM did have input and did NOT like the sugegstions, why then did he approve of the options to be presented to the youth?

 

3) If the committee is willing to support the youth goign to this camp by providing logistics, etc, then why is the commissioner complaining?

 

4) It sounds as if the current plan for homesickness works irregardless of location, SO WHY WORRY ABOUT IT?

 

5) Aren't we in it for the youth? If they want to go, and everyone si willign to support them going, then why change it?

 

6)Why is a commissioner using his status to butt into a unit's program?

 

Now in reference to the concern about the crossovers. I do agree with the commissioner to a degree. It may be harder to get them (or more specifically their parents) to commit to going on a trip that far from home. A few ideas that might remedy the situation.

 

1) Talk to the Webelos IIs and their parents NOW about the trip, i.e. costs, programs, etc. that way they can start saving the money now for it, esp. in this economy.

 

2) Start the crossover process now, i.e. inviting to them to meetings, campout etc. Let them and their parents get as comforatble as possible with you guys NOW so that they entrust little Tommy Tenderfoot with ya.

 

3) Any fuindraiser to help pay for the trip, invite the Web IIs to do.

 

Good luck

[CalicoPenn]

It seems to me that the Troop did a great job in choosing a summer camp. The program staff suggested to the committee that the Troop should do some research and find a camp that offered something for as many Scouts as possible - and the committee bought in. Then the Scouts were presented a number of different camp options, which were already pre-vetted by the program staff, and the program staff wisely let the Scouts make the choice of which camp to attend. Program staff is asking the boys to make the decision on what high adventure program the boys want to participate in. So far, so good - especially given that you seem to be trying to move the Troop into a Boy-led Program, which presumably means the PLC doing the research and making the decisions in the future.

 

Presumably the SM and ASM's were all on the same page, and the Committee had your backs. Is the SM backing away now because of this irate parent/Commissioner type or are there other reasons for his second thoughts? I'd say it's time to have a friendly chat over coffee with the SM and all the ASM's and decide what the plan of action is. You make a great point, you gave the Scouts several options, and allowed them to make the choice - all on good faith. To overrule it now will leave a bad taste in most of their mouths. Do the rest of the ASM's feel as strongly about honoring the Scout's choice or are they willing to just cave in to irate parent's demands? Perhaps the SM just needs to know that the ASM's and the Committee will fully back him up if he tells this irate parent/commissioner type that the Scouts made the decision to go to Blue Ridge, and that's what the Troop is going to do, and if he's unhappy with that, he's welcome to send his boy to a provisional unit at a closer camp if that's what he prefers. And if he tries to pull the Commissioner card, tell him to go pound sand.

 

If, on the other hand, the SM and the ASM's are just going to cave because this guy is some kind of District weenie, then I'd seriously consider whether it wouldn't be better to just become a parent of a Scout and stop being an ASM - who needs to deal with that kind of brain-damaging, soul-draining garbage.

[OldGreyEagle]

You could always tell the Disitrct Commissioner guy he is right, you are worthless and will be expecting him to pick up your slack as you are resigning in disgrace

 

OK, I had to say that. There will always be those who want you to do it the way they want done and harp on it forever, I have no advice as to how to inure yourself to such behavior, but it happens. What was it that has been attributed to Davey Crockett?

 

"BE SURE YOU'RE RIGHT, THEN GO AHEAD"

 

I think you did good, if you double think every decision, you never get anywhere

[shortridge]

The boys should be taking the lead on this. If they want to go to the camp they selected, they need to unite and inform the SM of that fact. The SM will have to justify his decision to overrule them, which will be tough.

[OldGreyEagle]

BTW go JOEPA

[Stosh]

The former troop I served wanted to do something different and so they went to summer camp in WY, just outside of Yellowstone.

 

Some of the Webelos cross-overs didn't go, some did. It was a two-day drive out there.

 

We went the boys had a great time.

 

This past year the boys selected a new camp because our local camp let them down in many ways the year before. They picked the camp. They registered everyone. They picked the merit badges. They did everything except arrange travel which the adults did. They had a fantastic time and voted unanimously at the end of week to return there next summer.

 

Sometimes when the older boys take ownership of the process they have a tendency not to quit, but are energized to keep on scouting. When adults arbitrarily or politically make unilateral decisions and the boys quit they have no one to blame but themselves.

 

Put it to a vote. All the boys can vote and no adult can. The SM is there to support the boys and if the boy's decide to sky-dive, then maybe he/she should pull the plug on the event, but if they want to go to a BSA camp in Timbuktu, so be it.

 

Summer Camp Woes for me would be, do I have enough people to drive the boys to where they have decided they want to go. Other than that, I just sit back and let them work it out.

 

Stosh

[scoutldr]

I agree, nothing wrong with your process, that I can see. If the "District Commissioner" is not a registered leader in your Unit, he doesn't get a vote...or even an opinion. Tell him that your "boy-led" troop is going to Blue Ridge (a great camp, BTW) and you're going to miss him.

 

Truth be told, he's probably being badgered by the SE to get all his units to go the local Council camp. Been there, done that.

[penst8]

Thanks for all of the quick repsonses. Here's some answers to your questions.

 

Planning for summer camp now, ALRIGHT! Wish most of the units I've visited thought this far ahead.-------I thought we were way behind. If you don't roll over your deposit when are you making your plans?

 

Did the SM have any input into the 7 options?-------All of the options were reviewed at our committee meeting before presenting to the boys. The SM left with a huge pile of information on the camps and he actually thought Blue Ridge looked like a great opportunity for our boys.

 

Why is a commissioner using his status to butt into a unit's program?-----Great Question

 

Talk to the Webelos IIs and their parents NOW about the trip, i.e. costs, programs, etc. that way they can start saving the money now for it, esp. in this economy.-------I already contacted the Webelos leader. His schedule is pretty full but we were looking to do something in early December to go over the camp, review cost and answer questions.

 

Start the crossover process now, i.e. inviting to them to meetings, campout etc. Let them and their parents get as comfortable as possible with you guys NOW so that they entrust little Tommy Tenderfoot with ya.------Weve already had them to a campout this fall and I know most of the parents from my involvement with the Pack. The current Webelos II's accompanied my group on the outings that my boys and I planned when we were Webelos IIs. I think I have a pretty good relationship with those parents.

 

Summer Camp Woes for me would be, do I have enough people to drive the boys to where they have decided they want to go. Other than that, I just sit back and let them work it out. ------We already looked at that too. Actually it was one of the first things we did since some of the leaders will be at the Jamboree when we want to go to summer camp. I was hoping to be able to sit back and watch the kids have a great time.

 

Truth be told, he's probably being badgered by the SE to get all his units to go the local Council camp. Been there, done that.-----You know that thought crosses my mind too.

 

[Eagle92]

Ok Thanks for answering the questions. I'ld stick to my guns and inform the commish to butt out. he's a commish, NOT a unit leader.

 

As for stats at the local SC, While my new SE does care about camp stats, he's one of the few pros I've met that really cares about the boys. While he would like for them to go to the local camp, he doesn't care too much where they go AS LONG AS THEY GO TO SUMMER CAMP! (caps for emphasis.

[boomerscout]

We all like to criticize, but only a few of us are willing to stand in the arena.

At the next troop meeting I would ask the boys present how they see the trip to Blue Ridge. Tell them what all is involved, and start your detailed planning.

District doesn't own you. They make suggestions. He may have been having a bad hair day.

Ditto on several meetings with your potential crossovers--keep them informed, and involve them in the activities

[shortridge]

The only reason I can think of for an SM to pull the plug on the unit's choice would be cost (the overall price of the camp, the cost of transportation) or leadership issues (can't get enough adults to go to camp that particular week or that far away). Those things should have been addressed early on - and it sounds like they were.

[John-in-KC]

Why didn't the boys do the research? The Committee undercut the youth and the Scoutmaster. This sounds to me as though we're in the Adult Run Troop Method.

 

This should have never happened in the Committee. This should have been a quiet word from CC to SM "Please, have PLC research and settle the 2010 camp in time for requesting space." SM has word with SPL, it goes on PLC agenda.

 

Let the youth narrow the list, let the youth decide on the Plan A and Plan B camps.

 

Then, the District Commish would not have had a leg to stand on. The youth members would have been doing the program things they are supposed to do. As it is, your unit may now get a lot of "friendly visitation" if the DC chooses to have a visit with the COR.

 

Unintended consequences...

 

Stosh has the right of this one...

[Beavah]

Yah, I'm comin' at this from my own weird perspective, eh? I really, really, really dislike misbehaving commissioners.

 

What yeh point out is one of da reasons a commissioner should never commission a unit where he is involved as a parent. Da roles get all mixed up. For the purpose of this bit, the fellow is a parent, not a commissioner. I personally think he should show up to troop events in civvies, not a silver tab uniform.

 

So what yeh have in this case is a misbehaving parent tryin' to short-circuit da unit's process in order to get his own way. Or, if he really is your UC, you have a UC who has gone off da reservation and is tryin' to micromanage a unit. Either way, the response is the same, eh? Yeh thank him for his input and then file it where it belongs, with a brief reminder that it's the PLC's call. And if it gets too bad, da CC sits down with the fellow and explains expectations for adult behavior.

 

Blue Ridge is a fine camp, and it seems like you have a fine plan, and good buy-in from da PLC and the committee. Yeh just proceed. Da folks tryin' to hijack the process will grumble and complain. Ignore 'em. If they pull out of camp, wish 'em well. They and their kid will get to listen to all the great stories about camp afterwards and wish they hadn't been so silly.

 

And as an aside, your CC or COR should place a private call to da district or council commish, eh? We don't always know all da things our UCs are doin' out there. Some backchannel information can help us with makin' appropriate changes to how we staff da commissioner service in the next year.

 

Beavah

 

[Nike]

Stay the course. Go to Blue Ridge. Ignore the blowhard.

 

Next August just remind the PLC that they need to get a few camp options developed by October so the adults who write checks and sign forms can get the ball rolling. If any of your older boys go to Jamboree, they might learn about some really great camps out there.