SW Camp Suggestions

[gcnphkr]

Does anyone have any suggestions for camps in the SW US. We generally go to an out of state camp each Summer. This summer we went to Thunder Ridge and Beaver High Adventure Base in Utah. Prior to that is was Whitsett/Emerald Bay rotation. We had hoped to go to Alaska next summer but with travel costs up and a number of scouts going to NOAC or Jambo we are needing to keep the total cost down some. Cherry Valley is one option as is Circle X. How does Cherry Valley compare with Emerald Bay? What about Circle X with Whitsett? Obviously Cherry Valley and Emerald Bay would be on the high end of our budget.

 

Are there any other recommendation in the area? We would like to keep it within 650 miles of Phoenix to keep it to a single day of travel each way. So camps near Yosemite or south would work. SW Colorado camps could work as well as would most of New Mexico.

 

Thank you.

[John-in-KC]

Have your PLC look at Mataguay in San Diego County. Did that after John Muir Trail in 1971, got Lifesaving MB there. Don't know about it now, but as SPL then, it was fun. That it was a day trip to/from Mt Palomar Observatory was really cool.

 

I was a Whitsett kid in the 60s/70s, and still like what I see there.

 

You might have your PLC look at Camp Fleischmann in the Nevada Area Council (hq Reno, camp vic Mt Lassen)

[gcnphkr]

Thank you, John.

 

Camp Fleischmann looks great. It is a bit further away then I was hoping, but it does look like it would be worth the trip.

 

Mataguay has one of the better leader guides I've seen. I like that it has conflict warnings in it, which would make it easier. I honeymooned in Julian. I like the area but I'm a bit concerned about the heat in July. Here in Arizona 3200 ft is very low, but it may be close enough to the ocean to take the edge off. I like that they have a class for non or beginning swimmers. Even here in Arizona we have a few that scouts that have never learned to swim and that requirement becomes a true mountain for them to overcome. So many camps ignore these scouts.

 

I'll add it to the list of suggestions for the PLC. They just don't seem to look and end up going were they've been before. Last year the adults rebelled about the council camp and told the PLC they could choose any camp in the state except the one they had been to 5 years in a row. After camp one of the most common thorns was that they probably would not be able to go back to the new camp next summer. Too many good camps, too few vacation days.

[John-in-KC]

Well, I'd invite you to the H Roe Bartle Scout Reservation in Osceola, MO, , but it's a bit beyond your 650 miles.

 

There are Troops which literally have 50 years of coming back to camp.

 

As our once Scout Executive, Mayor of Kansas City and founder of humanics, H Roe Bartle is reputed to have said:

 

"Give them great program and they will come."

 

If the kids are having great program, let them go back! That's my thought. Support the places which have great program. If it's trash, punch out!

[gcnphkr]

They ended up deciding to go to Ben Delatour in Colorado. About twice as far as I was hoping but the white water rafting beat out Emerald Bay. Now the big decision will be to push through and do the drive in two days or enjoy the trip and take three or four.

[John-in-KC]

Follow the driving limits set by Tours and Expeditions 33737D. I think max daily is 700.

 

BTW, I've driven I-80/I-29 Reno to Kansas City twice in the past year. I find even 650 miles to be a very, very long driving day, and I take as few breaks as possible enroute. With Scouts, soft drinks, and travel, I think 550 would be a full days drive.(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

[gcnphkr]

I agree. 550 is about max. One of the scouters who went in 2003 said they had two drivers in each car so they could go further. I was surprised, the permit is clear that the ten hours is with multiple drivers and that single drivers shouldn't drive that long. At ten hours a day we can still see a lot. But there is so much to see between here and there it seems like a waste to just drive by. Of course mapping software picks the dullest routes.

[Herms]

Obviously you know about Camp Geronimo there in Arizona. For next year you may want to look at some of the below camps.

 

-- A great out of state camp for you would be Camp Cris Dobbins in southern Colorado, north-east of Colorado Springs. Good program, good facilities, great staff.

 

http://www.denverboyscouts.org/openrosters/ViewOrgPageLink.asp?LinkKey=11109&orgkey=51

 

-- My brothers troop likes Camp Blue Mountain near Blanding, Utah. Great program but it is a "Cook your own" camp.

 

http://www.utahscouts.org/ssi/story.php?file=/outdoors/camps/bluemountain.txt

 

-- Camp Alexander west of Colorado Springs. Good program, facilities and staff.

 

http://pikespeakbsa.org/campa/

 

 

Have you thought about taking the train to the closest city and rent vans from there? Our boys took the train out to Emerald Bay this summer (don't have to worry about the 500 a day thing) and it worked out great! (and ended up being cheaper!) At our GDOP the boys have decided to go to Camp Hale in Oklahoma. Heard lots of great things about this camp but a little outside 650.

[gcnphkr]

We've started rotating between Raymond, Lawton and Geronimo (2009's choice). Most 1st-2nd years go to the local camp. We don't allow them to go out of state until they have been to a local camp--unless they bring a parent along. The last thing you want is a scout who can't handle a week away from mom when you are 500-1000 miles from her. Third years tend to go to both and by the time they get to 4th year they only go out of state if they are not on staff or no longer care.

 

It is remarkably hard to get scouts to go to a place no one has been before. About the best resources the various camps have are their leader guides. But they are boring. If more camps would put out videos or good slide shows they would get more scouts to be interested in them.

 

I'm looking forward to Ben Delatour. My brother is in the Denver Area Council so we may be able to convince him and his son to join us. If not, the family will likely take a second vehicle (our van is the "troop van") and continue our vacation from there.

 

I like the idea of the train. That would certainly be the way to go if we every go to the Northwest or out East. It would be great for a trip to Sea Base.

 

[gaucho]

Camp Frank Rand/Gorham Scout Ranch after a 1 million dollar grant(Formerly Chimayo Scout ranch) just north of Santa Fe, NM. is great. Very good food (for camp food). Great staff with flexible scheduling. Real climbing rocks. Platform tents are only a few years old used from Philmont and very good condition. High adventure program. The camp is already great, with the grant, they are going to build adirondacks (3 sided shelters with bunks), put in a lake. There seem to always be troops that return from Texas every year. 25 meter pool that goes to 10 feet deep. They want to upgrade it to 12 feet for diving, but Santa Fe county has an ordinance against pools over 10 feet deep. I would highly recommend it.

[gcnphkr]

We presented the calendar to the Committee on Tuesday for approval. They have concerns with Ben Delatour. Both the distance and the quality of the program. So the search continues. Thanks for the other Colorado camps and Camp Frank Rand/Gorham Scout Ranch. I'll look into them.

 

[John-in-KC]

Scoutmaster wasn't willing to fight for this, or was this something he'd seen and cautioned PLC about?

 

I can see a hard mileage limit, to account for fundraising and costs of fuels. I start seeing "adult run" when I see questions about program though.

 

BTW, you might have PLC contact Herms about Camp Rand. It, like Philmont, is in the Sangre de Cristo range, base elevation about 7200'. It seems to be relatively near Santa Fe. From my own experience this summer at PTC, that's high enough that the days may be hot, but the nights cool off quite nicely.

http://www.doubleknot.com/openrosters/view_homepage.asp?orgkey=45

 

 

 

 

[gcnphkr]

I pointed out that travel would be an issue. For me, this was the scouts choice. They new there would be issues and chose it over other camps. I wish more scouts had come up with ideas themselves. But Ben Delatour came from them, not from adults. Likely a major reason I did not push back on it when it came up. But the committee was fairly negative on the idea, more than I expected. The program issues related to safety at the archery range back in 2003 and a lack of merit badge offerings. No mention of it being a mill (I do try to avoid these when possible--becoming harder to do though). I've no idea about the realities of the program. One adult that went thought it was good, another thought it was horrible.

 

I find the summer camp selection one of the more unpleasant things to do. Next year I may ask the committee to give me a few options that the scouts can choose from, otherwise we will go with what the scouts come up with.

[John-in-KC]

May I suggest, rather than them giving option, them giving left and right limits, such as:

 

- Max 500 miles radius from our meeting hall.

 

- Must not do dining hall feeding..

 

and so on.

 

Recommend you have a talk with the CC and prime the pump on what sort of limitations you want given PLC.

 

I would think that something that happened in 03 is worthy of a revisit now.

[highcountry]

We just went to Ben Delatour, I would definitely NOT recomend them. They are difficult to deal with on almost every item large and small. Add to this the normal hassles of dealing with Scout camps and in Colorado (Burdensome medication policy and med form policy that has changed frequently in recent years). We overbooked by a half dozen scouts (Long story) they told us that if they sold some of the surplus spots we overbooked to other troops they would refund some or all of our money, they filled most of the spots, even asked us to use one site we paid for for a Texas troop that had more show thn originally booked and we said fine, afterward they told us forget any refund...they got paid twicce for several scouts. Some of the merit badges in the nature center were poorly done (more than one counselour). At the Wednesday Scoutmaster meeting they asked for suggestions on improvements that could be made, for every single SM that offered a situation and solution they had an answer how they tried something different once and it didn't quite work so they were defaulting to the status quo....then why ask for input ?

They have a poor contract with the "honey dippers" so they don't get good sevice on teh overfilling nasty latrines, they offered excuses instead of solutions on that. Almost evry little thing was a problem....asked for a camp counselour to join us so we could do some boards of review...."sorry can't" (Other camps have been enthusiastic helping with this), go to buy something as an adult at the store with a debit card..."sorry, without your drivers license we aren't allowed to put the sale through", can yu make change for the phone ? ....sorry, not allowed to do that. My son's project won an award and you mistakenly gave the award to a kid in another troop...."yes we goofed but it is too late, sorry can't do anything now".

I can give more examples but you get the idea. They are simply hard to deal with and they stole money my scouts earned, we will never camp there again.

 

FYI, the mess hall was good, camp is beautiful but Pine Beatles have taken a toll int eh past 2 years. Waterfron ativitys and badges are lsited but they are minimal at best. They have a very small pond not even worth putting a rowboat or a canoe in, it is very distant from the campsites. No one in our troop or any troop I talked to caught any fish there at all so if you take one of those merit badges you will be finishing it elsewhere. Shooting sports are good but many kids take archery so many scouts run out of time/opportunities to score to compplete aschery and sometimes Rifle and Shotgun.