Money = Priority at Camp

[PACK15NISSAN]

Just finished up our Webelos Resident Camp this past weekend and all in all it was a great experience. There was however one thing that left a bitter taste in my mouth and those of many of the adults and boys attending and that is where our campsite was.

 

During our training a few weeks before the event we where informed that there would be a ROTC group there and that it meant we would not have use of some of the camp during their stay and that our campsites would likely be a "little" farther away.

 

When we get to camp we where told we could not use the main field (in the main part of camp) during the day Friday and that our campsites where going to be some distance from the main area, in truth we where about 3/4 a mile from all activities. Each day we made no less than 3 trips back and forth from the campsite to the main area, plus a 10:30 leaders meeting (that ended around 11:15-11:30 each night). In total the boys walked no less than 15 miles which is a lot for 9 and 10 year olds.

 

When we spoke to the director we where told the camp made the decision where to put our camps and they had no control over it. Turns out that ROTC paid a lot of money to use our camp and that the Cub Scouts just didn't get priority.

 

Non-BSA ROTC got priority over council Cub Scouts because of money issues. It left many of us wondering if we go back next year.

[John-in-KC]

Have your COR discuss the issue with your Council SE. Make sure he says "Have you violated your charter agreement with my Partner?"

 

That'll spin up the SE.

[scoutldr]

Our camp is routinely rented out to other groups, but to my knowledge, NEVER when it is being used for Scouting. That gets my ire up, as well, especially when the other groups are not held to the "Leave No Trace" standard. I would slightly modify John's advice...have your COR write a strongly worded letter to the Council President who chairs the Council Executive Board. Copy to the SE and the other members of the Executive Board. The Council President is the SE's boss...at least on paper...it was probably the SE who made the decision, not the "Camp". Now the outcome may well be that the SE gets kudos for bringing in the dough...

 

"Money=Priority"...sadly, that's the reality today.

[PACK15NISSAN]

The advice I gave to the parents and other leaders (for some reason everyone always comes to me) was either write a letter or give a call (or both) to the Council office and let them know that they enjoyed the camp but campsite situation will probably keep them from attending next year. We are all hoping that maybe if the council gets enough complaints and thinks they are losing money they may fix things. Who knows they may not really be losing any money.

 

Now I know why everyone comes to me, because I always seem to have an answer (thanks to all of you).

[OldGreyEagle]

Has anyone communicated directly with the SE to see why things were done as they were?

[shortridge]

Before people assume a financial conspiracy - which group signed up to use the camp first?

 

If a council opens the camp up to non-Scouting groups, as most do, it's got to be a first-come, first-serve basis - it's the only fair thing. You can't bump the hiking club that reserved a spot in January in favor of the Scout troop that signed up in April.

 

On the other hand, if the resident camp program happens at the same time every year, and has traditionally used that section of camp, that does raise some troubling issues.

 

Also: Is the contention that the ROTC group paid something extra beyond the standard camp use fee? Or is it that the ROTC group paid a fee and the Webelos group didn't?

[Eamonn]

" It left many of us wondering if we go back next year."

Of course if you think that the Scouts are not going to have a good time next year? This might be the way to go.

 

Camps and the up keep of a camp isn't cheap.

Why does the Council have to resort to renting the camp out to non-scouting groups?

Doe the income from these groups help the camp?

Does it help keep the fees a little lower?

 

We might not like it, but money is a very important part of the day to day running of a camp and a Council.

Could it be that the Council was unable to look a gift horse in the mouth?

Maybe a donation that would equal the income that this group paid might be the way to go?

Seems to me that there a lot of options that might be looked at.

Eamonn.

 

[Gold Winger]

"On the other hand, if the resident camp program happens at the same time every year, and has traditionally used that section of camp, that does raise some troubling issues."

 

It may be safe to assume that the Webelos camp was not a sudden whim. If that is the case, we should be asking "What on earth is Council thinking about, renting out the camp to outside organizations during summer camp?"

 

Or is the summer camp not on a Council owned reservation and the local parks board arranged this because they saw a way of getting dual use of of the camp.

 

I'd be ready to hang someone but we need a bit more information before the rope goes over the tree limb.

[John-in-KC]

During the season, in my council:

 

Scout program comes first, BUT:

 

- Units may rent facilities during change day or break days.

- Other programs may rent facilities and share the camp after the program needs are met.

 

The annual calendar is opened for the next season in October. It allocates space and time first to in-Council units, then to OOC units, then to other programs.

 

Out of season, it really is first come, first served. Exceptions are Council and District level events.

[PACK15NISSAN]

I have no way of knowing which group signed up first. The Webelos Resident Camp has been around the same time every year though, so it would probably have been on the calendar for some time. Summer is for sure not the off season around here.

 

It is my firm belief (whether others share it or not) that a BSA Council camp should honor its own before others. BSA has a lot of guidelines regarding Cub Scouts to protect them, then why not in this instance ensure they are taken care of.

 

Again, I don't know if the ROTC paid more money, but it was strongly implied by the staff that this was the case. Webelos had to pay to use the camp. This is a council camp owned and has been for a long time.

 

The boys and I had fun and we will definately being going back next year, by telling council we might not return I am simply hoping this will let them know what they did effected a lot of people and I know some won't return because of it. I am hoping them thinking there pockets will be hurt will fix the situation.

 

I don't have all the information to share with everyone, and I am sorry for that. I do know that a non-BSA group should not be given priority over BSA. If it where boy scouts who where used to hiking it would not be such a big deal but for Cub Scouts it most certainly is. I am hoping that letting council know the concerns of our Pack and others joining in that they will ensure this does not happen again, to anyone.

[jmwalston]

Pack,

 

I would advise not to tell the Council you don't intend to return when you do. It doesn't set a good example among your peers or the boys. It might also give the Council the impression to rent out over you if membership at the event is implied to be smaller the next year.

[shortridge]

I agree with jmwalston - that could come back to bite you.

 

Before making a complaint and raising a ruckus, I'd be careful and inquire first, very politely, about the circumstances.

 

A "strongly implied" statement from the camp staff doesn't necessarily mean it's true. It sounds to me (please correct me if I'm wrong) that you got your information from the Webelos resident camp director, who's not the same person that directly oversees the camp year-round. That person may even have gotten his or her information second- or third-hand.

 

The siting decision may have been made by the SE - who knows? It also may have been made by a part-time clerk in the council offices who's never seen the camp in person and made a mistake.

 

When did the camp director learn about the location - at the same time you did? Did he or she raise any objections at that point?

 

Sounds like a screwy situation generally - glad the Webelos had a good time, though! At the summer camp where I used to work, everyone walked a lot because the program areas were pretty spread out - but it wasn't out-and-back straight-line treks, which makes it seem much longer.

[Gold Winger]

"I would advise not to tell the Council you don't intend to return when you do."

 

There's better ways to say it, such as . . . if this situation is going to be repeated next year, we may have to reconsider attending council camp and look for camp opportunities elsewhere. This leaves everything wide open.

 

I would try to find out why the ROTC guys were given prefferential treatment. Use both overt and covert resources to find out the answer to that question. If it was just a matter of "they paid more," it might be time to vote with your feet if there is another council's camp within a reasonable distance.

 

[jmwalston]

' "I would advise not to tell the Council you don't intend to return when you do." '

 

"There's better ways to say it, such as . . . if this situation is going to be repeated next year, we may have to reconsider attending council camp and look for camp opportunities elsewhere. This leaves everything wide open."

 

GW,

 

I agree with your statement, I don't agree with telling the Council you won't attend again when that is statedly not the truth.

 

"The boys and I had fun and we will definately being going back next year, by telling council we might not return I am simply hoping this will let them know what they did effected a lot of people and I know some won't return because of it. I am hoping them thinking there pockets will be hurt will fix the situation."

 

If I am trying to set an example for my Scouts, whether they be Cubs, Webelos, or Boy Scouts, then I should use the standards of the organization. Pack has stated that he hopes the implication of lost revenue will fix the situation. It is need of revenue that possibly caused the situation. Threating a further loss will only result in the Council making it up in rentals such as mentioned.

 

Pack,

"I do know that a non-BSA group should not be given priority over BSA. If it where boy scouts who where used to hiking it would not be such a big deal but for Cub Scouts it most certainly is. I am hoping that letting council know the concerns of our Pack and others joining in that they will ensure this does not happen again, to anyone."

 

I don't know that a non-BSA group should have less access for use of facilities compared BSA groups. It could be grounds for discrimination. Group X paid a premium to use the facilities and got shunted aside by a BSA group. Not great PR there. Once again, cool off and ask around. Do not start a grassroots movement to boycott the facilities when you don't plan to do so yourself.

 

 

[Gold Winger]

"I don't know that a non-BSA group should have less access for use of facilities compared BSA groups. It could be grounds for discrimination."

 

Only if you take their money. It's easy to say, "We own this camp and we give priority use to our members. If we have available space and time, we will allow other groups to use it."