Girls under 18 serving on camp staff ?

[Apache Bob]

"I do not think it will happen in my lifetime but hope that some day in the future our BSA will join the rest of the world in having both boys and girls in Scouting."

 

Rest of the world? We have boys and girls in Scouting. Ever hear of the Girl Scouts? Ever hear of Venturing? Maybe you should be petitioning the GSUSA to admit boys.

 

You're right Gold Winger - I did not make myself clear.

Boys and girls should be able to start into BSA together when they are in first grade and go through the Scouting program until they age out.

Yes, I have heard of Venturing and am a trained leader in the program but it starts at age 14 to 21.

I know the GSUSA is out there and was a Girl Scout leader for two years. It is a different program than BSA and I was talking about BSA. Maybe they should have boys in their program. If they did the BSA would change its mind about girls younger that 14 in a heart beat.

[ghermanno]

Okay. For what it is worth:

 

I just returned from the 12th Korea International Jamboree (co-ed). I found our USA boys to be some of the few that did NOT know how to interact with females. Maybe it is time we Americans stopped useing female/male models as SEX only. If we start thinking of people as people, maybe we would get along better.

 

Why do we tell the boys tehy are better and that if they can't handle it "why don't they join the Girl Scouts" as if they are a lesser being? Their charter is not the same and ours needs to change as well.

 

I was in Explorers back when we had a decent program and it was co-ed. It taught me just how equal the sexes are when working with the fine police officers in this country (both male and female).

 

Hopefully, probobly not in my lifetime, we Americans will grow up and start treating people like people. For those that think otherwise, that does NOT permit a male from being a gentleman or a female from being a lady. Being polite has nothing to do with your gender.

 

Rick

[TheScout]

I was taught in a Catholic school - very recently, not decades ago, that God created men and women differently, that men and women have different roles in society, and they were mutually complementing. One is not better than the other. Only different.

 

I think it would serve us all well to remember that.

[elfdream]

I've served on camp staff on and off for about 10 years and we have almost always had girls under 18 on staff. I found that they are a distraction for about two weeks and then after the routine of the camp is in full swing all of that dies down. A camaraderie develops (and no its not the same as male only camaraderie..its different but it still exists). Its probably because they are working together toward a shared goal and that comes from good leadership at the top. We rarely have a problem with someone sneaking into the quarters of the opposite sex because the girls are on the other side of camp under the watchful supervision of the Program Director and his wife. We've had flighty girls and 'lets focus on the job at hand' girls. Right now our assistant archery instructor is a 15 year old and she is focused. She's been around Scouting her whole life and already knew most of the guys and really wasn't 'interested' in them in 'that' way.

 

One thing I have seen is that the boys are less likely to drool and act like idiots if a pretty woman visitor happens to stop by. They will check out the pretty woman but they are more controlled and discreet about it. I've served on camp staffs where there were no girls and they boys would resort to cat calls and other disrespectful behavior if a female showed up. That's just my experience and I'm sure someone will have had things evolve in a completely different manner.

[Ditro]

As a 16-year-old Life Scout, I ask why do we have to have girls in the program? One of the reasons I like Boy Scouting is because when my troop is together we can just be guys without worrying about what any girls may think of us.

 

Is the meaning of equality for men and women coming to the point where we remove all of the characteristics that make us who we are? Boys are boys, girls are girls. If you want co-ed outdoor adventure join Venturing or camp staff, which I have nothing against. But, please, keep the BOY in BOY Scouting.

 

Ditro(This message has been edited by ditro)

[John-in-KC]

Ditro,

 

Welcome to the Forums.

 

Simply put, Venturing is a better older youth program than the upper division of GSUSA. BSA is getting young women who want the values we espouse. Those young women have the skillsets we need in our camp staff programs. When a young woman has the skillset, and a young man doesn't, guess who the Camp Director is going to hire?

 

There is also the small matter that BSA is subject to the United States Code. Discrimination in employment on the basis of gender is illegal. We are, after all, chartered by the United States Congress.

[FScouter]

Have to agree with Ditro. Boys bring something to Boy Scouts that girls don't have. A girl is not a boy and no "skill set" can ever make up for what a girl is not. Girls and boys, and men and women are vastly different creatures and equating the two is just silly.

[John-in-KC]

Good. Then find the boys to work the staffs. One pragmatic reason Camp Directors hire young women is there are not enough qualified young men to fill the requirement.

 

That will probably mean some form of increased compensation. We're already catching the youth who will make altruistic tradeoffs in compensation for service. To fill our staffs, we'll need to re-look the pay scales. That in turn will drive the cost to the camper up.

 

This summer, the roomie of EagleSon's PD came out several weekends as a volunteer. He's out of college and in his day job now, but he had weekends available. He's a NCS trained aquatics director. National Camp Standards (supposedly) require each pool staffer to hold BSA Lifeguard at a minimum. Many of the HS age kids who have BSA LG also have ARC Senior Lifesaving, and are eligible to LG at the town pool. They get far better money to work in town. What this one director said was he got kids who didn't have experience for one season so they had a performance history and a reference. Then they went for the $$$ at the town pool.

 

So... how do we fix a systemic issue where the Camp Directors hire young ladies at least in part because they've hit the point where they no longer have young men applicants, or the ones they have do not pass the hiring interview?

[BulldogBlitz]

at a camp, i would imagine there are a few jobs that a girl could be adequate. however, the reverse situation, a boy applying to work at the girls camp would come under much scrutiny. When I was Program Director at a summer camp, we didn't have that problem, but there was a girls camp within 10 miles or so of ours, so there were other camp employment opportunities for girls and women.

 

The one occasion that I've had to see a girl at camp was one of the special needs troops that came to camp one year had a female assistant. She had segregated sleeping arrangements (in the winter cabins). She was a distraction for the high strung group of guys I was with. No one ever crossed a line in front of her, but there were certainly comments made behind her back. I can only imagine the problems that a female life guard would present.

[John-in-KC]

I actually saw an incident this year. Fortunately, the young lady in question is in her 3d season as a staffer. She went and had a quiet talk with the Director.

 

Director had a quiet talk with the young man in question; then PD had a quiet talk with the young men of the staff.

 

There was an apology, and the problem did not repeat itself.

[elfdream]

She was a distraction for the high strung group of guys I was with. No ne ever crossed a line in front of her, but there were certainly comments made behind her back. I can only imagine the problems that a female life guard would present.

 

 

That was basically my point. When there are already girls on the camp staff the guys are not as 'high strung'. They are used to the presence of females and its no big thing. Its when they remove the girls that is when the guys start acting goofy around girls. However once again that is just my experience.

 

I've seen many of our male staff members come to the defense of their female co-workers when they suspect someone (usually someone outside the staff) is not treating them fairly or makes any kind of objectionable comment toward them and I don't mean just the pretty girls. This goes back to the camaradarie that I mentioned earlier. Working together for a common goal and that does not mean they are the same. They are not and never will be but it can work. I suppose you just have to see it in action to believe it!

 

And as far as wanting to be just guys and worrying about the pressure of what 'women might think of you' don't worry about that. Women who work on camp staff know that men like bathroom jokes and belch and talk sports..etc. If a girl has worked on a camp staff for any length of time she will learn to accept that and it gets to the point where she doesn't even notice it anymore. She also won't care if you come back from an outpost smelling of campfire, sweat and bug spray. For the most part these are girls who know what they are getting into and accept it.

 

The guys do have their own separate area where the girls are not allowed to go without permission...so they do have a place where they can be 'just guys'.

 

I add once again that the girls we hire have some kind of background in scouting and who is known to the council or a family history of camping/backpacking etc. She is normally already known to the camp staff as "Billy Smith, the guy from Troop 13..that's his kid sister' or whatever. We don't hire the girl who just graduated finishing school to live in a camp environment!

 

 

 

[SR540Beaver]

My 15 year old son staffed cub resident camp this summer and had a blast. There were about 6 girls aged 16 to 18 on staff. I believe most of them had staffed for at least the last couple of years. There is only one staff cabin area with a common shower facility. They have a camp director who runs a tight ship and will fire any staffer who wants to engage in any unscoutlike behavior. There were no issues this summer. I came in for one unusually heavy session where additional help was needed and worked in the dining hall. I was highly impressed with each girl on staff and the relationship of all staffers regardless of gender.

 

Where I did have an issue was the NYLT course held a week or two after cub resident camp. The staff was largely made up of staffers from cub resident camp. Three of the girls were "staffing" the dining hall for NYLT. When my son got home, he informed me that the girls did course presentations along with him and the other guys. All of these girls belong to active crews, but NYLT is BOY SCOUTS. I don't have an issue with girls staffing summer camp, but I do draw the line atStaffing NYLT.

[John-in-KC]

My only questions...

 

Were there sufficient young men to cover the NYLT staff? If not, why not?

[croushorn]

Just returned from SeaBase, they are wrapping up their program season for the year. My perception was that easily half, maybe more, was girls. All staff was over 18. Majority of staff had tattoos, hard to hide in bathing suits. My guys stumbled onto two staffers (male/female) one evening 'sharing' their camaraderie.

[SR540Beaver]

John,

 

Our council has 30,000 registered youth in 24 counties, so qualified boys could have been recruited. I'm not laying blame at the NYLT SM'S feet for enlisting the aid of the girls. I think it was a case of wearing too many hats. This same lady had been the SM for the spring WB course and camp director for cub resident camp before being NYLT SM a couple of weeks later. She went with a known quantity of camp staffers she had spent the past 6 weeks with and had worked with in previous summers at camp. In her shoes, I might have done the same thing. Staff development was done on the fly a day or two before the course began. I'd like to see the council run NYLT with the same committment they have to WB. Eagledad (Barry) used to run NYLT and I know his was much more organized and prepared.