Not going to Council Camp = Not Supporting Council?

[hops_scout]

Leaders were talking about the troop structure and condition last night after the meeting. It was commented that it was about as close to a committee meeting as they normally get;)

 

Anyway, the conversation moved to summer camp and high adventure. Apparently our SM and possibly our CC are recieving a lot of heat about the troop not going to the council camp. We have gone out of council the last two years to a camp in the next-over council that is just 10x better than our council camp. I've heard this summer was very bad for our council camp.

 

The PLC has already decided to return to Camp Sunnen for next year. That will make three years in a row. The adult leadership is getting pressured to returned to the council camp.

 

What can a council do to a troop who does not attend their local camp? Anything?

 

Our SM was having lunch with the DE this afternoon and I look forward to hearing what he has to say about their meeting.

[CalicoPenn]

What can a Council do to a Troop that does not attend the Council's summer camp? Only one thing - refuse to recharter the unit - a short sighted move no Council would ever want to make. Other than that, the answer is "nothing". There is nothing in the charter, rules, regulations, policies, procedures, etc. etc. etc. that declares that Troops must attend their own Council's summer camp. So your troop should feel free to attend the camp of the Boy's choice. Hopefully, your SM & CC have the gumption to stand up to whomever is pressuring them and tell that person/those people to, politely, go scratch. To add a little sugar to that sour taste, perhaps the PLC would be willing to offer up a written summary of just why they find the out of council camp to be preferable/superior to the in council camp.

 

Calico

[scoutldr]

This was one of the very issues that caused me to step away from District committee membership...my last assignment was Camping Chair. Our SE would publicly berate our committee because we "were not ensuring that troops supported our Council camp". My attitude was, "if we have butts in cots, who cares what council they're from...besides, you surcharge out of council troops, so you should be glad they are there." Most troops in our COuncil rotate summer camps...there are about 6 within a 4-5 hour drive of our area. Most like the mountain areas because the weather is cooler and the mosquitoes are more tolerable.

 

Just like any business, if a camp wants to attract customers, they have to offer something better and/or cheaper....or maybe just different.

[scottteng]

Maybe the council not having plenty of what the boys want to do is the council not properly supporting the troops. After this last summer camp with the 2/3 cut in open shoot time, the skimpy meal portions, and the lack of staff enthusiasm for their assigned subjects. That is the way I have heard it was supposed to work we pay those people down there to support us not the other way around. IMHO we would be better off without the whole lot of them except for the camp rangers and the secretaries lets fire all SE's DE's etc think how much money that will free up that we can put to good program use.

[Gonzo1]

I don't think that going out of council is not supporting council.

I would say that not doing pocorn sales (of some kind) is not supportive or not doing Scout-o-Rama or whatever.

 

As to skimpy food portions, there can be lots of waste when junior doesn't like fish sticks or green beans or whatever.

 

As your troop goes ou of council, some other troop may come to your council.

 

Perfect example of why I like patrol cooking camps.

 

[Lisabob]

I am increasingly thankful that our council does not run a boy scout summer camp - we do not have this problem and are free to go where we please. However, I have heard other council camp directors berate their troops for not showing "loyalty" to their council camps and I find it to be a counter-productive strategy, employed by people who lack interpersonal skills and don't want to admit the weaknesses in their own programs. You don't build loyalty by bullying and berating people. In fact such tactics may well drive people further away from your camp (who needs that behavior!).

 

Sometimes you have to "speak truth to power" and I think this is one of those times. Lay it on the table. Let them know why you aren't returning to their camp. Challenge them to take a positive approach to improving their weaknesses, rather than simply threatening you. Point out that their threats are a turn-off, not to mention empty. You'll probably offend some people by doing this, it is true, but you'll probably get even more pats on the back from others who agree with you. And maybe (if you're lucky) someone will see the sense in your words and start to make some changes for the better in how the camp is run.

[scoutldr]

"In fact such tactics may well drive people further away from your camp (who needs that behavior!)."

 

For the first time in our 15 year history, the troop I serve went OOC. We should have done it sooner. The boys were thrilled to see new sights, but it is sad for me to turn away from the camp I helped build and first attended as a Tenderfoot in 1966. But I refuse to be bullied by a "professional". We shouldn't let sentiment get in the way of providing a quality program to our units.

 

[John-in-KC]

If I were having lunch with that DE, or his SE, my comment would be one, and only one:

 

"Enthusiastic youth staff, knowledgable area heads, a schedule built to keep the youth excited, first rate facilities: When you have those four items, we'll send a contingent back to give you a try. When do you want to give me and other area Scoutmasters a tour?"

 

Both of our Council Reservations (H Roe Bartle and Theodore Naish) sell out year to year. Why? See the above.

 

Lisa gave good words as well!!!

[EagleInKY]

Not supporting council?

 

No, I wouldn't call it that. You vote with your feet. If your council's camp doesn't cut it, challenge them by going elsewhere and then coming back and giving feedback to your council. It doesn't do any good to run off to another council camp because it's better, and then not give feedback to your council about how they could make it better.

 

Personally, I wish our council would charge a higher rate for "out of council" troops (kind of like "out of state tuition". I'd like to see them do this instead of raising costs across the board.

[Eagle69]

I became SM of a Troop that was going OOC and continued to go to this camp for many many years. The reason being the program and facilities were better. I heard the rumblings about us going OOC and have heard from a reliable source that it was held against me when I was nominated for the Silver Beaver and delayed me getting it for several years. I never heard much from my DE. He always asked why and I told him and he never had a problem, after all he got credit for us being there.

 

[packsaddle]

Yeah, this is the way the market is supposed to work. If there's a product you'd rather pay for elsewhere, go for it. It's your (troop's) decision and no one else's.

Ignore the people who 'bank' on loyalty - in fact their failure to provide a competitive product may be evidence of THEIR disloyalty. Their concern is based more on a self-deception than on your decision to go elsewhere. Have a great trip.

[scoutldr]

The most common comment I hear is about the weather. Our council camp is near the coast where a typical July day can be 97 degrees, and a dew point of 75 (think AP Hill). A troop can drive 3 hours and be in the mountains where the daytime temp is 80, nights in the upper 50s and the mosquitoes and ticks are nonexistent. Lying in the bunk at midnight when the temp is still 90 with sweat and DEET pouring off you is not pleasant. We can't compete with that.

 

On the other hand, when I encounter OOC troops at our camp, I make a point of "interviewing" them. They think our camp is wonderful. Go figure.

[hops_scout]

Little more information for ya...

 

Camp Joy (council camp)

-constant staff changes

-dining hall food (downright horrible)

-waterfront lake is loaded with bacteria, slime, algae, etc

-extra costs for shooting sports

-COPE Course (a positive)

 

Camp Sunnen (choice camp)

-staff seems to change some, but they have some who have been around awhile

-staff is excited to be there

-more variety of merit badge options

-mainly patrol cooking (two meals a day cooked in patrol)

-excellent facilities shared with YMCA camp across the lake

-huge lake that is clear

-Climbing tower

 

From the sounds of it, our SM may have been "drafted" to serve on some sort of committee to try and bring back Camp Joy. The facilities are a big hole for us, but the biggest thing is the patrol cooking. I think he might have also been asked to possibly join a committee in the other council on ways to improve their camp!

 

Time shall tell...

[BrentAllen]

My old SM told me that years ago (probably around 15), our Council was having a hard time getting our Troops to go to Woodruff. The camp has great facilities, but the staff left a lot to be desired. Council invited all the SM's to a steak dinner for a sales job on attending the camp. After all the sales pitches and schmoozing, not a single Troop signed up. Council finally got the message and improved the staff.

 

We have the same facilities they had back then, but the staff is now pretty phenomenal, and the camp is full. Feedback is a gift! It truly is!

[John-in-KC]

I've spent part of the summer watching my Eagle son as he serves a Camp Staff. An enthusiastic, caring staff can overcome just about everything except bad food.

 

As for food, BSA does have an established ration. It's in the National Camp Standards, from what our Camp's dining hall manager tells me. It seems to me an unsubtle question of "show me the BSA ration, show me our ration plan, and explain to me how they match up?" is an important question ... whether the food is cooked for dining hall service, or given in bulk for unit cooking.

 

At the end of the day:

- Quality of staff and program.

- Quality and healthfulness of facilities.

- Quality of food. ...

 

... should be 3 high priority factors in guiding the PLC to decisions on where to have LT camps.

 

Two of the above are mentioned in my earlier comment:

"Enthusiastic youth staff, knowledgable area heads, a schedule built to keep the youth excited, first rate facilities: "

(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)